The Future Of Complex Wargames Looks Bleak

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

What a great reply warspite. I am actually more excited about its release than any game I can remember for a long time. I was going to reply to SLAAK saying that it must be doing something right just by the sheer size of the players.
VASSAL is not suited for me for the reasons stated above. Even though WiF won't have an AI, at least it will force a newb like me to stay within the rules.

I thought about seeking beta-testing from this last call for volunteers, but after looking at the signup thread it is clear that there are other way more qualified.

Thanks again for putting much of that to rest. I think I would have to agree with you on many of your points. I'm looking for a colossal game that will fill the Grand Strat void that I have been feeling for far too long.

mo reb

p.s. MWiF is the one highlight in our world as far as deep wargames in production. I can think of no others. Hence this thread.

warspite1

Mo Reb there was no need to be personal. Okay so I've put on a few pounds since my youth but there's no need to draw it to peoples attention [;)]

[wosung]

I'd imagine, that the strict phases for everything in MWIF will be a serious problem for non-WIFers or non-boardgamers. Those phases make sense for a boardgame to keep the monster playable. But for a computer game it may be counter-intuitive. This is a problem of faithfully porting a game system to another medium.

Regards

[pzgndr]

And really, why must everything be so much more complex just because it can, theoritically speaking? I don't want Grigsby's WITE; I want Avalon Hill's Russian Campaign with a decent challenging computer opponent. Afrika Korps, War and Peace, Kingmaker, etc. Those would be nice.

Methinks a disconnect is that there are two groups of folks. Those who want the additional complexity that computer programming offers, so you can track individual tanks and rounds and fuel expenditure even for a global or theater level monster game. And those who simply want the convenience of a computer version of classic boardgames with their abstract units, that we can fire up on demand and have good game. Complexity wins, sort of. Simplicity takes a back seat. Oh well.

[wosung]

The question is, is complexity about pushing around *more* counters around over *more* hexes?
Is it about complex formulas under the hood?

I'd be happy if the Grigsby team would have modernized WIR & Pacific war into a same scaled global war game with a new UI instead of monsterize them.

Best regards

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

I thought about seeking beta-testing from this last call for volunteers, but after looking at the signup thread it is clear that there are other way more qualified.

I think you should apply if that is the main reason for you not to apply.

Your lack of experience with WIF is not considered a drawback since the testing team needs testers that are new to WIF as well as they need grognards. I even suspect that players with no or limited experience are needed more. The main consideration should be if you can find enough time for this project.

I am sure you would make a nice addition to the beta testing team.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: Missouri_Rebel

They are too complex for this instant gratification

Isn't the main problem with these games that they dump tasks that would be done by tens or hundreds of people on a single person? It doesn't have much to do with wanting instant gratification.

[wodin]

I think different scales require different levels of abstraction. Tactical requires the least and Grand Strategy can get away with the most.

[Kuokkanen]

It has been declared computer gaming is dying.
It has been declared wargaming is dying.
It has been declared BattleTech wargame is already dead.

I don't believe ANY of it! Nor do I believe in need to reinvent Steel Panthers

[PEWPEW]

I think a big problem is that not enough people who may enjoy these titles get the chance to see them and play them. I'd take a look at how Paradox Interactive maintains a growing niche community. They have more comprehensive demos out and they have their games on Steam and Gamersgate, maybe GOG aswell. People see these games and get excited at the amount of detail and depth then either buy them or do a little research and poke around the forums a bit. Another thing is the pricing of older titles. There is such a miniscule chance for someone to pick up a older game on an impluse. During the steam winter and summer sales, it's very easy to snatch a copy of one of Paradox's grand strategy games for the sake of satisfying one's curiosity. I'm not saying that Matrix games should become Paradox interactive. I'd like Matrix to take a look at the ways Paradox Interactive keeps it's player counts up.

[greykemp@gmail.com]

I'm with you pzgndr. I really don't have TIME to play all the greats I played in the 60's-90's. I looked at the PC Afrika Korps but haven't finished the main campaign yet. Sometimes lots of units just isn't the answer. I'm pretty sure this is why the squad level stuff is getting so popular and has so many games out at that scale. An operational game with 100+ divisions on each side with 32 actions per turn per unit is NOT what I really want.

My favorite current "wargame" (not actually even close) is Settlers of Catan with all it's expansions on my PC. Turn based in case of a phone call, few units per turn (too few but hey), and unlimited strategies. It has that...if I win I'm smart and good. If I lose it was the dice appeal. LOL

[Rtwfreak]

If they would develop something besides repeats of old games and the same old games it might not be an issue. But, people get tired of the same old things....Why do you think 50% of all marriages end in divorce?

Now they want to move to handhelds and tablets because once again they can make the "same old things" and reap profits off of old content again and even put in less content because of what the handhelds and tablets can handle.

It's never been about the gamer or the love of creating a game it's always been about the $$. They will follow the stream not their convictions or what gamers want.

So you either follow the tug boat or you're left adrift in the ocean of despair waiting on that wargame you've always wanted that will never be made. Cue Combat Leader and some others Matrixgames has Abandoned.

But, even you and I as gamers ask for these troubles. Look how many of you want an Age of Rifles remake or a SPWAW remake? You want a graphics facelift really of old games you enjoyed but how much more could they do to make the games any better than they are in DOS mode other than the graphics? Well of course we can always say AI improvements but we've been saying that for 20 years and it never happens. You know no publisher or developer ever really says how the AI was improved only that it was improved. I highly question improvements to an AI of any game in the past 10 years. All I've seen is them getting worse.

But, things will change and publishers and developers will always run where the money is. Look at these independents begging you to approve them on STEAM greenlite program. Everybody wants on Steam and I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for Steam games if they weren't $5 or less.

When you want to get right down though to the blame game just look in the mirror, we cause this (the gamers) because we put up with released broken games, paid full price for them, we put up with them using Steam and intrusive gaming clients, we ran into their arms because they taunted us with games we just had to have no matter what the consequences. Welp the consequences are growing near and now you've made your bed it's almost time to lie in it. [:-]

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: DigIn

I'm with you pzgndr. I really don't have TIME to play all the greats I played in the 60's-90's. I looked at the PC Afrika Korps but haven't finished the main campaign yet. Sometimes lots of units just isn't the answer. I'm pretty sure this is why the squad level stuff is getting so popular and has so many games out at that scale. An operational game with 100+ divisions on each side with 32 actions per turn per unit is NOT what I really want.

My favorite current "wargame" (not actually even close) is Settlers of Catan with all it's expansions on my PC. Turn based in case of a phone call, few units per turn (too few but hey), and unlimited strategies. It has that...if I win I'm smart and good. If I lose it was the dice appeal. LOL

Hmm..funny that as I'm still waiting a a decent squad level game that improves upon Steel panthers that isn't 3D or realtime. The is a bigger gap for a great squad level monster game than Operational or Grand Strat as they really are well covered.

Paradox certainly took off compared to Slitherine Group. However they've even shied away from squad scale game even though they own the PC rights to Squad Leader.

Another wargame thats terribly overlooked is a tactical air warfare game. Lest one was Flight Commander 2 and I reckon thats an area that can really be expanded on by adding Squadron management, operational mechanics and rpg aspects.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

It's never been about the gamer or the love of creating a game it's always been about the $$. They will follow the stream not their convictions or what gamers want.

Do you mean to say: "It's not what gamers want but what gamers buy"? What is difference?

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive
RE:war games

It costs too much to pay a programmer, artist and content providers for games that only sell a few copies. Ad to that the bargain bin pricing mentallity that kills the hope of recovering the costs.

As I have said for a while now, the future will be hobbist making open source freeware games.

Even bleaker. The tools to make the open source must be cheap, quick and easy to use or that won't even happen.

[Kuokkanen]

I don't know about cheap, quick and easy, but it happen

[parusski]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rtwfreak

It's never been about the gamer or the love of creating a game it's always been about the $$. They will follow the stream not their convictions or what gamers want.

Well, that is what any business SHOULD do. Without those $$'s they would not be able to publish any games.[:-]

[ezzler]

Om the comment about variable turn lengths for WIF being a modern day turnoff .. the new Battle of the Bulge for ipad/tablet uses variable turn lengths.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: junk2drive

Posted at wargamer discussions by me

RE: consoles
My forecast is that app games will outpace PC and console games. Smartphones and tablets will have docks that attach to a TV screen or PC screen (or those 2 will become the same thing) for those wanting a larger view. Casual gamers will play browser games on google devices like the Chromebook.

PCs and consoles will become nostalgia items ...

I can remember when PC software filled a wall of shelves, but now they occupy a small niche in most retail stores.

[flashburn]

A game that looks like a board game and plays like board game....... Maybe you should get some friends over, get drunk and play the board game?

AS to computer games dying blabla bla. RIght now the trend may be leaning to tablet games and the like as those are popular devices. AT somepoint the WOW factor will deminish. Although certainly a segment that will stay. Every year there are more older gamers. Now they have LIVES of course, but a certain number will want games that use BRAINS. I can only see this increasing. But current crop of most war games do not interet me. That is not to say they are bad or anything. Just seem to old school. No longer a fan of most turn based games. For me that has passed. On the flip side...........these total fanatasay games coming out of from big players. UGH yuck! No thanks you. Wheres the middle ground damnit! Or design more scalabilty into the silly thing.

[Jamm]

I think there will always be computer wargames as the computer can just do so much more.
There will always be a segment of society that gets into history, even if its only by watching the History channel, or seeing movies like "Saving Private Ryan"
Or there are those who are into fantasy or science fiction.
There are a multitude of games for all of these tastes.
And some of these people will get into the games like we did.

I think a lot of the games could use a major graphic update to reach wider audiences and make marketing them easier.
And I'm not talking here about making everything 3d, as I think it is a wasted effort on the part of devs.
Nice maps and unit counters, good sound and a few battle effects are all I want.
As long as the substance of the game remained.

One game I think would benefit in this case would be the Steel Panther series.
If done well, I'm sure it would sell across the board.
Even some of the kids playing the Battleground series could try it out tactically, if it looked right.
And this series handled all the complexity under the hood.