Nearly 3 years since release

[Remmes]

As far as I am concerned the core of the game, the engine, needs to be in order. If that is the case it can be used for years as a solid base for expansions, spinoffs etc.... There are multiple games that keep milking the same engine over and over again (Cod, anyone?). Unfortunately the engine for BftB still has some issues in the latest beta (borked timings for attacks and arty), but there have been some major improvements in the latest string of beta's. Real showstoppers like 'the casualty issue' have been adressed during this string of beta's if I am not mistaken and (in my case at least) ctd's have been fixed, so after ironing out the latest wrinkles the final patch should make the engine stable and able. I think they are very close to that point.

If that is achieved, there is no need to hold back on further releases etc...

[Jafele]

Eventually I have reached some conclusions but have some questions:

1-It looks most of customers don´t wanna let die BFTB.
2-Customers buy games.
3-If customers feel dissapointed due to common narrow-minded financial "interests", then they will buy less games. What kind of financial interests would be interested in losing?
4-EF can be an expansion, in the same way that HTTR. Why to make a new game if the engine is really good? Wouldn´t it be better to focus energy and time on improvements over a solid basis?

In other words, financial interests are nothing without customers support.

[wodin]

Jafele..the next game is using the same engine..the series has always used the same engine..just each new game has new features added to it.

common narrow minded financial interests...WTF??

I'm talking about Dave needing to make money to finance the CO series..

EF wont be an "expansion"..as it has a whole new OOB..new terrain sets and new major features..just like BFTB wasn't a COTA expansions..and COTA wasn't a HTTR expansion. You think they are going to do all that work on EF and then sell it as an expansion at expansion price? You really do want to see them go out of business then.

I agree that fixes here help the EF game..thats obvious..however at some point the next title needs to be worked on..an EF game will sell very well indeed..far more than any expansions for BFTB.

Also the new features the EF game will have most notably dismounted ops is massive. Something that BFTB could really have done with. So who knows the EF game may get a BFTB expansion. The you all get BFTB again but with some lovely new features. Plus we have LOTB which brings a whole new scale to the engine..and this will be using the EF engine version I believe.

I don't want to see BFTB left broken..or have game breaking bugs..but no game will ever be bug free, I reckon you could keep tweaking BFTB for another five years..but why would you? Get BFTB working without any obvious bugs or game breaking issues then move on to the EF game and get those new features in.

Oh I will say once COTA hits CO..you'll have plenty of opportunity to make Africa, Norway and Sealion..all of which where made for COTA. Not sure but if the COTA OOB is merged with the BFTB OOB you may be able to do some Italy battles.

Anyway lets remember each new major release is a big step forward RDAO to HTTR...HTTR to COTA and then COTA to BFTB. After playing COTA I found it difficult to go back to HTTR and I'm sure once the next major release is out I'll find it difficult to go back to BFTB. Not because of the theater but because of the leaps forward the sim makes with each major release. I bet when the EF game comes out..you will all be begging for a BFTB expansion pack and if you get one you'll wish you'd have had it sooner;)

[Jafele]

Wodin, even after three years the game is alive, I see every day tons of people interested in it. Sincerely to leave it bugged is absurd. I would understand your point if the game were a bad business or a bad one. About Dave´s financial interests I suppose he´s mature enough to know what to do, this is not my business. You said "an EF game will sell very well indeed" but that´s not a fact just an opinion, perhaps people would prefer to buy expansions (less expensive than a whole game) instead of buy another game+future expansions. Matrix have to think in economy but people too... As I said companies interests are nothing without customers support. Anyway this is only my opinion, we should let Dave defend his own interests.

Do you remember CMX1 and Toaw III? Maybe one day we´ll have the same issue, but at least I´ll feel proud to have said NO to let BFTB die.

[Jafele]

Deleted

[Phoenix100]

This conversation with you - about the EF thing/ditch the tweaks to BFTB - keeps coming back, eh, Wodin? [;)]I realise the game isn't really your thing right now, that you don't really play it, that you need an EF version to really enjoy playing it, yet still I'm never really sure there's anything to talk about, or why you keep mentioning the matter. Because you say (above) - Get BFTB working without any obvious bugs or game breaking issues - and that about sums it up. That's what you want, you say, and that's all Jafele was asking for. All anyone is asking for. All Dave is doing. So there's no argument is there? That's all that's happening, all that's ever been happening, is that Panther are trying to Get BFTB working without any obvious bugs or game breaking issues

Sure enough, once that happens I'm sure everyone will be delighted to move on to new content for BFTB and new titles such as EF, etc. And pay for them.

[Remmes]

ORIGINAL: phoenix
Panther are trying to Get BFTB working without any obvious bugs or game breaking issues[/i]

Sure enough, once that happens I'm sure everyone will be delighted to move on to new content and new titles. And pay for them.

This

[Arjuna]

Well I think we are there now phoenix. Tomorrow morning, barring any last minute showstoppers, I plan to do the next build. This will be the final patch #4. We will then switch to getting the COTA Ex Patch ready for release. Hopefully by the end of next week I can sign off on that too.

With all the spare time we have had of late [;)] we have been discussing the way forward on the Panther Dev Forum. It's still in a state of flux but my thinking at the moment is that once the COTA Ex Pack is out I would like to focus on developing Command Ops 2 (CO2). The aim would be to give the engine a new look and feel especially in regard to the UI. There are some items we need to include in order to support the next KOAD Ex Pack and then the East Front title.

I would like to make CO2 a low cost of entry product, say around $30. It would only include the apps, tutorial, maybe two other smaller scenarios, a short manual and the tutorial videos. We would continue to enhance this product with a series of upgrades. Each upgrade would include new features. We would provide a means to convert any existing data pack so that it can run with the latest engine upgrade.

In conjunction with the engine development we would aim to release a series of Data Packs. Each pack would have around a dozen scenarios and sell for say $30. By keeping the packs to this size we can do two things - keep the price down and hopefully release more packs more regularly. We need to do this to improve our cash flow.

By segregating the engine from the data content we enable users to buy just what data they need. If they are not interested in BFTB then they can pass on that and instead buy the engine plus say HTTR. It also helps us make minor patches more regularly. These will be for free but they will not include enhancements.

As to what features will be included in the first rendition of CO2 well we are discussing that now. We have a plethora of features on the table. The trick will be to break these up into digestible chunks and then schedule these in conjunction with the data packs.

Once we get a bit further down the track I'll post our provisional thoughts up here for you all to comment. But I won't go into that in any detail right now.

One other thing I would like to say is that I was a bit sceptical of making public beta releases. But I have been encouraged by the outcomes and the spirit by which you all have embraced it. Thank you very much.

[Phoenix100]

Thanks, Dave. Look forward to the final!

And the future. Thanks for the update on what's going to happen. I think releasing data packs of scenarios more regularly, and charging, as many have suggested, is a great way forward.

Now, I am destined to ask the inevitable........when? [:'(] Any time frame at all possible?

[Jafele]

ORIGINAL: phoenix
Sure enough, once that happens I'm sure everyone will be delighted to move on to new content and new titles. And pay for them.

Sad but true: History repeats itself...

[altipueri]

Er, do I understand this correctly? We've now got a perfect (well as near as)game engine.

So, instead of just cranking out scenario/data packs for a couple of years of revenue generation and giving us some teasers about content, an announcement is made about developing a CO2.

Hitler to Churchill - "Don't waste time and money trying to master the V1 because in a while you'll have the V2 to figure out."


Scenarios - NOW


PS - I'm about 2/3 rds through Churchill's History of the Second World War and he's getting a bit pissed off by Stalin's "SECOND FRONT - NOW"

[Phoenix100]

Scenarios - NOW (Altipueri)

???? What on earth do you mean, Alti? Do you realise that you're addressing, more or less, a couple of people who do this part time, and probably make very little money out of it?

There's a COTA pack coming, of course.

[dazkaz15]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Well I think we are there now phoenix. Tomorrow morning, barring any last minute showstoppers, I plan to do the next build. This will be the final patch #4. We will then switch to getting the COTA Ex Patch ready for release. Hopefully by the end of next week I can sign off on that too.

With all the spare time we have had of late [;)] we have been discussing the way forward on the Panther Dev Forum. It's still in a state of flux but my thinking at the moment is that once the COTA Ex Pack is out I would like to focus on developing Command Ops 2 (CO2). The aim would be to give the engine a new look and feel especially in regard to the UI. There are some items we need to include in order to support the next KOAD Ex Pack and then the East Front title.

I would like to make CO2 a low cost of entry product, say around $30. It would only include the apps, tutorial, maybe two other smaller scenarios, a short manual and the tutorial videos. We would continue to enhance this product with a series of upgrades. Each upgrade would include new features. We would provide a means to convert any existing data pack so that it can run with the latest engine upgrade.

In conjunction with the engine development we would aim to release a series of Data Packs. Each pack would have around a dozen scenarios and sell for say $30. By keeping the packs to this size we can do two things - keep the price down and hopefully release more packs more regularly. We need to do this to improve our cash flow.

By segregating the engine from the data content we enable users to buy just what data they need. If they are not interested in BFTB then they can pass on that and instead buy the engine plus say HTTR. It also helps us make minor patches more regularly. These will be for free but they will not include enhancements.

As to what features will be included in the first rendition of CO2 well we are discussing that now. We have a plethora of features on the table. The trick will be to break these up into digestible chunks and then schedule these in conjunction with the data packs.

Once we get a bit further down the track I'll post our provisional thoughts up here for you all to comment. But I won't go into that in any detail right now.

One other thing I would like to say is that I was a bit sceptical of making public beta releases. But I have been encouraged by the outcomes and the spirit by which you all have embraced it. Thank you very much.

Sounds great [:)]

Is this going to be a windows type build with the multi monitor support, and all that kind of stuff? Do you have the ability to support multiple cores as well?
(ok you guessed right....I have no idea what I am talking about lol)
The guy who sold me my computer told me it had lots of cores, so I guess that's a good thing right? [:D]

[altipueri]

Yes, really looking forward to the COTA pack.

I realise they are a small team which is why (at risk of repetition) I think proliferation of scenarios - TOAW has some 700 uploaded - is the way to get new customers. And getting the customers to make the scenarios is probably the cheapest way to do it.

I do also admit that I tend to bang on at small game companies like Panther and AGEOD about generating sales and profits rather than producing the world's best historical game. The overall strategic objective of a business is to stay in business. Anything else is just a hobby.

[Phoenix100]

The overall strategic objective of a business is to stay in business. Anything else is just a hobby.

That's one (very recent, historically speaking) take on human productivity and creativity.

But they might opt out of that definition and consider themselves to be producing something more akin to art (in that the ultimate point might not be 'to stay in business' but something else entirely - like 'to produce a great game', for instance....). Business/hobby are not the only options in the world, right?

[HappyHedonist]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Well I think we are there now phoenix. Tomorrow morning, barring any last minute showstoppers, I plan to do the next build. This will be the final patch #4. We will then switch to getting the COTA Ex Patch ready for release. Hopefully by the end of next week I can sign off on that too.

With all the spare time we have had of late [;)] we have been discussing the way forward on the Panther Dev Forum. It's still in a state of flux but my thinking at the moment is that once the COTA Ex Pack is out I would like to focus on developing Command Ops 2 (CO2). The aim would be to give the engine a new look and feel especially in regard to the UI. There are some items we need to include in order to support the next KOAD Ex Pack and then the East Front title.

I would like to make CO2 a low cost of entry product, say around $30. It would only include the apps, tutorial, maybe two other smaller scenarios, a short manual and the tutorial videos. We would continue to enhance this product with a series of upgrades. Each upgrade would include new features. We would provide a means to convert any existing data pack so that it can run with the latest engine upgrade.

In conjunction with the engine development we would aim to release a series of Data Packs. Each pack would have around a dozen scenarios and sell for say $30. By keeping the packs to this size we can do two things - keep the price down and hopefully release more packs more regularly. We need to do this to improve our cash flow.

By segregating the engine from the data content we enable users to buy just what data they need. If they are not interested in BFTB then they can pass on that and instead buy the engine plus say HTTR. It also helps us make minor patches more regularly. These will be for free but they will not include enhancements.

As to what features will be included in the first rendition of CO2 well we are discussing that now. We have a plethora of features on the table. The trick will be to break these up into digestible chunks and then schedule these in conjunction with the data packs.

Once we get a bit further down the track I'll post our provisional thoughts up here for you all to comment. But I won't go into that in any detail right now.

One other thing I would like to say is that I was a bit sceptical of making public beta releases. But I have been encouraged by the outcomes and the spirit by which you all have embraced it. Thank you very much.

Excellent news all around! I hope this new model works out, I'd gobble up scenario packs for years to come if this level of support continues. You guys really are kicking ass right now.

[Arjuna]

Cranking out scenario packs sounds simple but it isn't that straight forward. The engine we have now is pretty good but it has some significant shortcomings that limit the type of scenarios you can do. For instance, we don't have the capability yet to model cross river assaults nor tank riders or soviet style fire plans. These are required for East Front scenarios. We don't have the capability to model minefields which are a pretty essential aspect of the North African desert battles.

We have the Knock on Doors scenario pack almost done but it requires more performance to run these large scenarios. Hence why we need to support multiple AI threads. We have a number of East Front scenarios just waiting for the above soviet doctrine features. And Bil's Legends of the Blitzkreig game is waiting for the mounted ops feature.

If it's just down to me full time with some part time support from Paul and Miquel then it's going to take a long time to get through these features. What we need is a way forward where we can produce product in increments and maintain cashflow. Hopefully in the process making it more attractive to new users and hopefully leading to the situation where we can have at least two full time programmers working on it. Miquel's part time addition to the programming team has made a real positive impact. It has allowed us to make faster progress.

In making it more attractive to new users one consistent criticism that has been levelled at us is that our graphics are looking pretty tired. Many will say that the graphics are not important to them but I believe that if we are to improve our long term viability we do need to address this. Many of the UI changes we are considering don't require huge investments of time to develop. AI features like mounted ops on the other hand are HUGE in comparison. So we can address many of the UI features that users have requested here and do so in stages bringing in some cash with each upgrade while improving the look and feel and hopefully the appeal of the game to new users.

I'm thinking of at least two upgrades each year and two data packs. More would be nice but it's probably unlikely.

[BletchleyGeek]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna
If it's just down to me full time with some part time support from Paul and Miquel then it's going to take a long time to get through these features. What we need is a way forward where we can produce product in increments and maintain cashflow. Hopefully in the process making it more attractive to new users and hopefully leading to the situation where we can have at least two full time programmers working on it. Miquel's part time addition to the programming team has made a real positive impact. It has allowed us to make faster progress.

I must say that without the incredibly good work done over the years in the engine by Dave, Paul and quite a few other people, my quite extensive experience in C++ programming wouldn't have helped much. Very much like a jazz musician, when I got into this ensemble I found myself surrounded by the works of brilliant people, which had set a really solid foundation. So I've found really easy - most of the time - to follow the tune and pick up where others had left.

Command Ops is indeed an "engine for the ages".

[wodin]

Just read the new look forward..hmm.so will CO2 not be the East front then and not have dismounted ops? Just be some core game awaiting the extra features?

Sounds fine if you can garuntee data packs and upgrades consistently..however seeing how long it takes juts to get a patch sorted I have serious doubts this will work..two scenarios in the core game maybe cheap but it's hardly much to get your teeth into and then what a possible 6 month wait for a decent set of scenarios. I presume COS will be the current engine with UI changes and what two east front scenarios and no big extra feature. Damn those who have moaned about the graphics then is all I can say..I'd rather have had a fully featured new engine game than having to cross my fingers that we actually get some bigger features made.

I can see the issue though. EF with the features you originally planned (dismounted ops)is most likely two years away at least and you need to make some money so your going to do it in stages...think I will wait until the EF game whenever that will be is fully featured and has a decent amount of scenarios before I'd bother buying..and if others follow what I intend to do your not going to be making as much regularly. Same with CMx2 games I never bothered buying CMFI but now Gustav is coming out I will buy a bundle. I resume those who buy bundle packs here will get a discount than if they bought it all separately..otherwise I can for see the game with the scenarios and the upgrades and the core costing way more than what it would be if you held off and did it all together

A UI spruce up and two scenarios for $30?. You are aware that that probably isn't going to go down to well...not much money I know but I can forsee the same issues you had with the BFTB release. UI change and two scenarios with no actual new features..you need to be looking at most $20..

Anyway to say I'm slight disappointed is an understatement, new features taking a backseat for fancy graphics (you do know those who want new graphics want 3D maps and silly Icons instead of counters otherwise your just doing it for those who are already happy with them).

Jason

[Phoenix100]

I wonder if there's any info on what Dave et al have in mind for the graphics? I assume we're not going to have sprites and crap like that - so what would an update consist of? I'm not sure. Google earth type photo maps? That would be ok. Not needed, but ok.

Maybe someone can confirm we're not having sprites etc. Be nice to have some info as to what Dave meant about the graphics, especially since (UI improvements aside) the graphics are presently perfect. Well, almost. I do need to look at google earth to get an immediate and clear sense of elevation and such like. I suppose the maps can be confusing in terms of contours. So, some 3d thing? That would be ok too, I think.

You wouldn't object to that kind of thing, Wodin, right? You just don't want the sprites, yeah?