Game Set Match: End of Realism, Supply and Run Discussion

[mktours]

mark,
I would continue the AAR with detail report. You would see you make a wrong conclusion.
I stopped to continue the AAR because you made many big mistakes in the process and I didn't want to offend you by continuing the AAR. Now I have to continue with every details.

[mktours]

the cut off troops in this map didn't receive air drop, they can move because they have fuel in stored in HQs, the rail head is almost in Moscow now in T15. indeed, we could also see in this picture that your troops in Moscow area has been cut off in T14 (released after your Turn), did they just froze to die? certainly not, being temporarily cutting off for one turn didn't spell the death of an army. You should see it from your experience of your encircled armies.
Mark, my suggestion is that you upload your file to the tech forum, let the experts judge if I did any thing wrong or not. I would continue the AAR with detail reports, your indictment is wrong.



[/quote]

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Bozo_the_Clown

Need to do a lot more than that to tame the blizzard, imo.

This is really the main point. You can deal with the Axis exploits by setting up house rules. But what about the blizzard? I've never seen anyone try to impose a house rule that deals with the blizzard. Maybe only allow hasty attacks? Maybe only allow one division per hex? I don't have any experience but without a blizzard house rule the game falls apart after turn 25 unless you've beaten the Russians to a pulp.

I am starting a game with the following house rules:

-Non-Random weather
-No HQBU or bomber fuel runs (transports ok)
-Soviets fight forward (with rules + gentlemen's intent to enforce)
-In blizzard, Germans fight forward + only deliberate attacks by Soviet

I really feel this might get us somewhere. The 41 running is due to insane logistical exploits. The blizzard insanity is due to the ability of Sov players to annihilate the German army if it holds its ground due to crazy blizzard rules. Without the logsitical boosts in summer or hasties in winter, you might actually see a normal game (that is the theory anyway).

Will try to post an AAR once things get rolling...

[mktours]

Mark,
your didn't formally resign to me, from our communication in emails I could only thought you are willing to continue the game, that is why I do my T15. You have said you want to stop the game, but I was asking to continue, and then you sent the turn, I reply and said I am happy to see you are willing to continue the game. and you didn't say you are quitting before I sent you my turn. I saw you did a T14 with full effort, so I could only react to do a turn with my best. You didn't ask me to stop in your mail with your T14. Indeed, after your T14 you have some hope, but in German T15 the south cracked and your Moscow troops are almost hopeless.
I didn't accept your indictment of my exploiting the game, I just didn't want to argue in the email. you could upload any detail to the tech forum. Your got wrong conclusion that my spearhead units could always move regardless of being cutting off, I didn't want to argue with it as our game is still ongoing, then why bother to correct the false conclusion of your opponent? Now the game is over and I am willing to point out your were wrong, please pay attention to my AAR and feel free to correct me if I say anything wrong in the AAR.
You are losing the game. you could not say you are unhappy with my exploiting and stop, if you want to claim it in this way, please demonstrate it.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Flaviux,

I resigned the turn before, but did one more turn for him because he was dubious that I could have cut off a huge mass of his troops. Here is the situation before his move:

[mmarquo]

Tours,

Of course your railhead eventually caught up; however there were multiple times when your units far outstripped rail logistics and you air supplied to the maximum. It is not wrong that you did it and this not an indictment. You have found a way to move your units without any semblance of logistical restraint. Anybody versed in Barbarossa will look at these situation maps and simply laugh at the notion that the logistic model in this game is anything but pure fantasy.

Please post everything so the developers can take steps to fix the broken engine.

Cheers,

Mark

[mktours]

Mark,
I will do a detail AAR. I am working now and I would have to do it later.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Tours,

Of course your railhead eventually caught up; however there were multiple times when your units far outstripped rail logistics and you air supplied to the maximum. It is not wrong that you did it and this not an indictment. You have found a way to move your units without any semblance of logistical restraint. Anybody versed in Barbarossa will look at these situation maps and simply laugh at the notion that the logistic model in this game is anything but pure fantasy.

Please post everything so the developers can take steps to fix the broken engine.

Cheers,

Mark

[Disgruntled Veteran]

While I agree that the Bomber fuel run is a bit excessive I am skeptical that it is a home run like it is being made out to be. In my current game I used all bombers to drop fuel before every turn and yes it helps, but I still had average to mediocre mp's. Don't get me wrong, sometimes the difference between 25 and 35 mp's can make all the difference but it doesn't make for an unstoppable panzer force. I feel there is many other variables at play here.

Its also possible I am not utilizing it to maximum effect but I am dropping several thousand tons of fuel a turn and I am loathe to get my tanks cut off. Instead of simply cutting off forward spearheads and ending turn why not rout them if possible? This would be far more devastating than a single turn of isolation.

[mmarquo]

Tours,

Normally I would not respond to what you posted, but out of respect and considering that there is a minor language barrier (your English is excellent by the way), here is what I emailed you:

"As for your attack to the north of the railroad, it convinced me to stop our game. You have figured out a way to bypass the need for railroad supplies, and there is simply no way of stopping the Axis under these conditions. This, coupled with nonrandom weather gives you a mathematical certainty to do just about anything you want. By a quick glance I could completely cut off all of your troops southeast and southwest of Moscow (the entire southern pincer), but I notice that you have air supplied some units north of Moscow 17 times with air supplies.

So, thanks for the good game, but there is no point in continuing as you have figured out a fatal flaw in the logistical system; good job."

Tours, this was my resignation.

So again, thanks for the game

[Dangun]

These conversations about 'fantasy fuel air-drops' seem to show that most people - me included, don't understand what is being done to them.

If someone (MKTours?) could explain how to get such a profound positive effect from air-dropping fuel, this conversation would probably move along better and be more constructive.

[mktours]

mark,
I did get what you meant in this message. That was when you just received my T14 and I have confirmed that you said you want to stop the game in my post above. I replied your email and asking to continue, then you said you would do the turn, and I replied this message to you:
"Mark,
I am glad to learn that you are willing to continue the game,
I am expecting a good turn from you. I still think our game is challenging for each other, and I am looking forward to defending your blizzard assault. It would be a pity for you to give up with only 3 more clear turns left."
you didn't mention you would quit the game again with your T14 (which has been done with full effort), that is why I did my T15. If you replied my message, which I quote above, and said you didn't want to continue, then I would not do my T15.
Anyway, it could be some misunderstanding here in the communication, let us stop arguing about it.

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Tours,

Normally I would not respond to what you posted, but out of respect and considering that there is a minor language barrier (your English is excellent by the way), here is what I emailed you:

"As for your attack to the north of the railroad, it convinced me to stop our game. You have figured out a way to bypass the need for railroad supplies, and there is simply no way of stopping the Axis under these conditions. This, coupled with nonrandom weather gives you a mathematical certainty to do just about anything you want. By a quick glance I could completely cut off all of your troops southeast and southwest of Moscow (the entire southern pincer), but I notice that you have air supplied some units north of Moscow 17 times with air supplies.

So, thanks for the good game, but there is no point in continuing as you have figured out a fatal flaw in the logistical system; good job."

Tours, this was my resignation.

So again, thanks for the game

[Michael T]

I think the lesson here is people just need to be up front about what they expect in their games. A list of conditions and HR and go from there.

FWIW MKT I would be happy to take you on at some stage. Just can't fit any more games in though right now.

IMO the game is fine as long as both parties make some agreements before hand and are willing to quid pro quo.

Playing without HQBU and LB supply would be fine if your Red opponent fights forward and there is some limitations on the blizzard.

[mmarquo]

Tours,

I am not arguing about anything [:)] After I told you that there was no point in continuing, you remarked: "I didn't believe you could cut off the troops you mention, please do it, " So, I did.

This thread is not about our match, rather what the game engine allows. Since Dangun asked, I will show what is happening, what the game engine allows.

This picture shows a hex far from a RR getting 11 separate airlift missions, most of which are bombers. I presume a HQ was there, received it's airlifted gifts, then moved to sit on some panzer divisions further south. This sort of logistical feat was not possible, it is a pure fantasy. Yes, some converted He-111's were used to bring airlift supplies, but not in the quantity or type allowed by the game.

The RR conversion rate had to restrained as it was too generous in earlier versions of WITE; now it is time to reign in the airlift capability.

Cheers,

Mark

[Erik Rutins]

I think this is a fairly dramatic conclusion based on the results of one PBEM game that's not all that well understood. I appreciate the information provided so far in terms of the strategy mktours is using, but would like to understand a bit better why when many Axis players use Air Resupply we haven't seen this level of success before. I assume it's a unique combination of HQ buildups and air resupply, along with very careful move and attack planning, but the more information provided the better.

As Joel has said many times, the logistic system in WITW (and WITE 2.0) is completely overhauled and we're reluctant to change much in the old WITE code base at this point. The logistic system in WITE is not a fantasy, though it does have some potential loopholes and it's not as comprehensive as the new WITW system. I see a lot of hyperbole on various issues, but would love to see more detailed information on what exactly the perceived problem is and how it should be solved. House Rules are also a perfectly valid solution if an issue is identified and cannot (yet) be addressed.

Regards,

- Erik

[mmarquo]

Erik,

That Vladimir, Tambov and Ryazan all fell on turn 14 could also be in part due utterly incompetent play on my part, but probably not. No doubt MTours is a prodigious player who has learned to use the what the game engine allows to his best advantage. My point is exactly as stated: the airlift capacity allowed by the WITE engine is way too generous and affords an disproportionate logistic advantage.

Thanks,

Mark

[Walloc]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think this is a fairly dramatic conclusion based on the results of one PBEM game that's not all that well understood.

If it indeed was one game i would be in agreement, it just isnt. MT when his game actually last as long made it to Stalingrad and Penza some 25 Hex rows EAST of Moscow on the turn 16, start of Oct 1941. MTs other AARS as german tend to stop before ever reaching that far so nothing conclusive can be made of that but there is a reason they all stop before that. Throw in all of Sappers as german and Peltons AARs they made quite a few showing near the same capabilties.

U can go back 1 thread and see how vs the AI ur at the outskirts at Moscow at turn 5, thats still july. Yes its an AI game and all of the impressivness of the AI in WiTE one shouldnt make to much out of it. Still it shows u can actually advance to teh outskirts of Moscow in 5 turns.

Or u can take game Bozo reaching Tambow 14'ish hexes from Penza on turn 11, only to give up after some minor mistakes after that.

So is this the full story. Is it some thing that is always happening, no obviously not, but looking through the AARs on the first page of the AAR page its around 50-50 as in 50% of cases where advances outpace this historic plausible by lengths, where is any info in the AARs on it. Is the AAR skewed probably, ppl presumably less inclines generally speaking to do AARs if they arent do to well and perphase know this before hand. Where as those that know they are good, wants to show it. Still.

I cant see how this can be seen as an example of a single AAR.

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
I appreciate the information provided so far in terms of the strategy mktours is using, but would like to understand a bit better why when many Axis players use Air Resupply we haven't seen this level of success before. I assume it's a unique combination of HQ buildups and air resupply, along with very careful move and attack planning, but the more information provided the better.

Clearly player ability/experience/understanding of the system plays a big role. The latter part of statement is ofc a big part of the answer. Do u know how to take full advantage of the possibilites the game gives u and possibly takes that too the "extrem", ur gona get results that those, that dont or wont, doesnt achieve. There is more to it tho, as fuel planning. Some times it pays to wait to move as MP and fuel are so directly tied together with MP, that at times it pays to move back and so forth. Miminize ur MP usage(getting maximum carnage along the way) = minimize fuel usage, mazimixe/plan ur RR repairs reaching the furthest at the shortest amount of time, along with the things u mention. There is no big mystery here.


Kind regards,

Rasmus

[Flaviusx]

Erik, this isn't a one off. The only real novelty about it is the extended Lvov opener (which others have abused to great effect.)

The entire supply system has been gamed for a very long time now on the Axis side by players with the skill and stomach for it.

Now, I agree with you that WITW and future iterations of WITE should improve on this situation.

[Gabriel B.]

Level bombers can deliver 350 tons (one panzer division worth of fuel )per army group , irc mktours robed peter (ags -ju-88 ) to pay for paul (agc ), and i suspect he also used Agn airforce at least iniatialy .

Since you have 17 panzer divisions and 10 motorised , geting the most of what was delivered requires a lot of skill, which mktour obviusly has.

[Peltonx]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I think this is a fairly dramatic conclusion based on the results of one PBEM game that's not all that well understood. I appreciate the information provided so far in terms of the strategy mktours is using, but would like to understand a bit better why when many Axis players use Air Resupply we haven't seen this level of success before. I assume it's a unique combination of HQ buildups and air resupply, along with very careful move and attack planning, but the more information provided the better.

As Joel has said many times, the logistic system in WITW (and WITE 2.0) is completely overhauled and we're reluctant to change much in the old WITE code base at this point. The logistic system in WITE is not a fantasy, though it does have some potential loopholes and it's not as comprehensive as the new WITW system. I see a lot of hyperbole on various issues, but would love to see more detailed information on what exactly the perceived problem is and how it should be solved. House Rules are also a perfectly valid solution if an issue is identified and cannot (yet) be addressed.

Regards,

- Erik

Erik this is really nothing weird as these results have been going on for a while in many AAR's even under the latest rule sets.

Bombers dropping fuel/supplies is a massive loophole that's been exploited from day 1 by some and now by everyone.

I did the same thing playing SHC during blizzard. Cut off units are never cut off so to speak. This loophole is also causing Middle Earth results during blizzard for SHC

[janh]

One data point certainly is to be taken with caution only, but as Walloc said there are quite a few examples with impressively deep and quick advances not only with the most recent patch. This seems to be in stark contrast to me since Wehrmacht back then already struggled severely with setting up its backward supply chain, so even with little or no opposition it would not have been likely to get any more than a small detachment to Moscow by turn 5. Not to mention whole Armies. There would in all likelihood have been stops due to the logistics alone, so it doesn't matter whether is requires AI or incompentence on the Soviet side -- it should be more of a struggle against its own logistics capabilites.

The other thing that strikes me about this: I was already astonished earlier that despite his impressive SuperLvov feat, MkTours seemed to maneuver himself in a defeat position all by himself in Pelton style with narrow, snake-like advance in the Valdai. It looked like he'd also give away all advantages voluntarily. Add little flank cover he provided, and this ought to have ended as a huge disaster for Axis, but that he now is able to sustain an advance with such a tactic sounds to be against any military basics. Weired.

[mktours]

Thanks, Michael
It would be an honor for me to play with you as you are certainly way better than me in terms of playing this game. I studied some of your AAR carefully and learned a lot from you, especially your AAR with Pelton, thanks for sharing them. Some people said you win because you know the best of the logistic system, they didn’t see the good game playing and strategic reasoning you are sharing in your AARs.

I am also short of time at this moment. I have to work at week days so I could only do the game in the evening. I have played 4 games in the last 2 months and this has used up the time budget my wife allowed to me. [:)]I need to stop for a while and attend to my family now. I hope we could find some time to play the game when WITE 2.0 comes out.

ORIGINAL: Michael T

I think the lesson here is people just need to be up front about what they expect in their games. A list of conditions and HR and go from there.

FWIW MKT I would be happy to take you on at some stage. Just can't fit any more games in though right now.

IMO the game is fine as long as both parties make some agreements before hand and are willing to quid pro quo.

Playing without HQBU and LB supply would be fine if your Red opponent fights forward and there is some limitations on the blizzard.