EDBTR Database Project

[npsergio]

ORIGINAL: Turner

Well I am not convinced about that concept. Historically some days German pilots flew up to three sorties, as it is that is sometimes possible and the current maintenance times feel right. I don't understand the Ta152 aversion, you can limit the impact by use of house rules. To mod existing types further f ex replace the 109Z with a later 190D model and make house rules enforcing the 190D types to be operational before 152 research is allowed. That would fix the issue in a very historical manner. Two types to research before 152s would enforce a 6 month delay or so, mid '44 maybe.

I agree with all that you say.
I like the idea of new FW-190 models.
I like you idea of house rule limiting the research in historic games.
I like the idea to not to change the Ta-152 stats (if the plane were a good plane, why to chage it?).
I don't like to add the 2 engine requirements unless it is justified (and I think that probably it's not in this plane), but I could live with it...
About the maintenance time, I meant about the repair time it takes to fix the damaged planes, not about the time to refuel and rearm, that I agree with you that is ok. But I think that it's a bit unrealistic/ahistoric to have 36 operational planes nearly every day... IMHO

[K 19]

If you are only talking about house play by email rules against a human player, then of course your idea will work. But a lot of people don't play other humans through email. Most only play against the computer. As we all know, the computer player won't voluntarily follow house rules.

I guess we could release two different mod versions. I still want to stick with working on the regular mod version myself. But if anyone wants to tackle modding the pbem version aimed towards house rules, please do. [:)]

[npsergio]

ORIGINAL: K 19

If you are only talking about house play by email rules against a human player, then of course your idea will work. But a lot of people don't play other humans through email. Most only play against the computer. As we all know, the computer player won't voluntarily follow house rules.

I guess we could release two different mod versions. I still want to stick with working on the regular mod version myself. But if anyone wants to tackle modding the pbem version aimed towards house rules, please do. [:)]

Of course you're right. House rules can only be agreed between human players.
Maybe the 2 engines cost for the Ta is a good idea to slow the production (even if I don't like it too much, because there is not any historical reason in it, I think). But I think that a change in the stats is something to do carefully. I mean, I'm playing the 44 campaign and I'm in final may 44. All those months I have litterally lost hundred of Bf 109G6 because of the US super fighters (P-47 and P-51). I learnt to fight them trying to minimize my own losses... But I think that the stats maybe are correct (aren't they?). If the allies find the Ta unstopable, maybe they have to adjust their strategy? But I'm not sure if it's fair to reduce the Ta his stats, unless they have been overpowered by the developers.
Probably making this moddel harder to produce and raising repairing times could have a result reducing the Tas production and general availability of planes due to repairs and maintenance.
I think that usually JGs had a good number of planes grounded in maintenance and repair due to lack of supplies (am I correct?).
Is not possible to change the abailability date of the axis planes? If it's possible, it could be a possibility to add some months to the historic (?) date. That will force the axis side to waste resources in research only to receive the planes in the historic data, and a "real effort" in research and lost production in order to advanve that date in late war wonderweapons.
Just some thinking about it... I hope that it will helps.
I can't say anything about the allied side, because i have not a lot of experience in this game and i know better the luftwaffe side.

[K 19]

ORIGINAL: npsergio

ORIGINAL: K 19

If you are only talking about house play by email rules against a human player, then of course your idea will work. But a lot of people don't play other humans through email. Most only play against the computer. As we all know, the computer player won't voluntarily follow house rules.

I guess we could release two different mod versions. I still want to stick with working on the regular mod version myself. But if anyone wants to tackle modding the pbem version aimed towards house rules, please do. [:)]

Of course you're right. House rules can only be agreed between human players.
Maybe the 2 engines cost for the Ta is a good idea to slow the production (even if I don't like it too much, because there is not any historical reason in it, I think). But I think that a change in the stats is something to do carefully. I mean, I'm playing the 44 campaign and I'm in final may 44. All those months I have litterally lost hundred of Bf 109G6 because of the US super fighters (P-47 and P-51). I learnt to fight them trying to minimize my own losses... But I think that the stats maybe are correct (aren't they?). If the allies find the Ta unstopable, maybe they have to adjust their strategy? But I'm not sure if it's fair to reduce the Ta his stats, unless they have been overpowered by the developers.
Probably making this moddel harder to produce and raising repairing times could have a result reducing the Tas production and general availability of planes due to repairs and maintenance.
I think that usually JGs had a good number of planes grounded in maintenance and repair due to lack of supplies (am I correct?).
Is not possible to change the abailability date of the axis planes? If it's possible, it could be a possibility to add some months to the historic (?) date. That will force the axis side to waste resources in research only to receive the planes in the historic data, and a "real effort" in research and lost production in order to advanve that date in late war wonderweapons.
Just some thinking about it... I hope that it will helps.
I can't say anything about the allied side, because i have not a lot of experience in this game and i know better the luftwaffe side.

Good points. In the Human vs Computer version I will probably follow the route of making longer maintenance/repair times for all aircraft. I too think they are too short as of now. I don't plan on modding any aircraft stats (including the Ta-52).

[K 19]

By the way, a few hex editing hacks were recently taught to me by 'Mr. X'. Much thanks to this anonymous person. [&o] You have made the game much more playable and enjoyable for me. I cannot post a link to the hacked file, or the editing instructions here because that might violate Matrix's rules.

One of the hacks increases the yellow game message time from 2 seconds to 4 seconds. 2 seconds is just too short in my opinion. 4 seconds at least gives you a chance to read each message before it disappears.

The other hack basically ignores 'over target area' message which centers the map on message level settings 1 or 2. This means the map won't jump around so much anymore, especially due to the numerous recon aircraft missions. You will still hear the engine sounds each time they are over target, but the map won't center on them anymore. When aircraft attack or bomb ground targets, the map will center on it. You won't miss anything important.

Anyone interested please private message me.

[Turner]

The issue raised was the very early possible availability of the 152 which can only be a problem in PBEM since the AI won't pursue ahistorical dates.

[Creeper]

I saw in the editor that aircraft id 499 contains the OOB version nr of the file.
K 19, if you publish any modified databases, could you adjust this version nr, please?
I'm concerned that we all become confused, if there are different databases floating around
without different OOB version numbers in the future.

[K 19]

Thanks for pointing that out. Will do!

[Turner]

I'll pick the prefix 33- right away for my modded db files.

[rob89]

Hi all,

I see you all know very well the database structure

Two questions :

1) Could someone explain to me the meaning of the data-fields in the 'device-sub-database', for the case of factories

For ex. : K19, please, what is the meaning of your statement :

<<I have also slighly increased engine manufacturing requirements to help keep aircraft production numbers down a bit. >>

Are you referring to those parameters, or other issues ?


2) Do you think it's possible to introduce a different 'device-type' to model the first german surface-to-air missiles ?

thank you in advance

Rob

[TaggedYa]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade, Lord knows this is more activity than this board has seen in six months, however, it is probably a good idea to think a little bit about game design before you start nerfing planes.

Bombing the Reich is a simulation. You probably don't want to go changing things that are properly simulated because something else might be improperly simulated. I have no reason to believe that there is anything wrong with the combat model or the production model of the TA 152. The only problem relating to the TA 152 that I am aware of is that some German players in play by email games have managed to greatly accelerate its production.

I have never heard of anyone having a problem with the AI because it had TA 152s. Quite frankly, the concept of nerfing something because the AI is too strong in this game is laughable. You should be looking for ways to make games against the AI somewhat challenging, which they currently are not.

What no one seems to want to look at is why the research function exists at all. If the historical entry dates for the aircraft are correct, then why would we have a way to accelerate them. The allies have no way to accelerate their production. They fly what they are given when it's given to them. This is where game design comes in. For the game to work you have to prevent the allies from just sitting and doing nothing for the first 100 turns. If the allies don't play at the start the system for the Darwinian improvement of the German Air Force does not work. So, you have to come up with a way to reasonably force the allies to actively engage the Germans. The game has two functions to do this. One is the sudden-death rules where you simply lose if your score gets to low. The other is the research rule. If you let the Germans amass large stockpiles of aircraft he can turn his excess production into research and get better planes.

I put it to you, that if you let a human opponent expend 40 or 50 aircraft frames, engines, and parts every day for 150 days on research, you deserve to lose. The game is designed to make you lose. The cure is not to Nerf the airplane. It's not to Nerf production. It's for Allied players to actively attack the Germans.

Ask Turner if he thinks that German production is too high, or that he is able to put too much towards research. I don't think he will answer in the affirmative. I expect to have him below 100 engines per turn by the end of turn 20.

This game has a multitude of problems that need to be addressed, the TA 152 is not one of them!

[K 19]

Interesting viewpoint. Thank you. I think we can all agree that the planes don't need to be nerfed. Aircraft changes to delay Ta-152 for pbem games... we'll all have to vote on that I think.

Can you please provide list of the other non-hardcoded problems that need to be addressed?

[K 19]

ORIGINAL: Turner

The issue raised was the very early possible availability of the 152 which can only be a problem in PBEM since the AI won't pursue ahistorical dates.

Sorry for the misunderstandings. I don't play the German side, and am not so familiar with how research works. But I think I understand what you are saying now. The German player can accelerate research towards the Ta-152 at a much faster rate than was historically possible. Basically the Ta-52 can show up too early in the pbem game, making it highly unbalanced. Your proposal is to replace some of the lesser-known German aircraft with later version of the FW-190. Both pbem players agree that the German player must have researched these first before builiding the Ta-152's. None of these changes affect the computer German player because it follows the historical research and production dates. Is this correct?

[TaggedYa]

ORIGINAL: K 19

ORIGINAL: Turner

The issue raised was the very early possible availability of the 152 which can only be a problem in PBEM since the AI won't pursue ahistorical dates.

Sorry for the misunderstandings. I don't play the German side, and am not so familiar with how research works. But I think I understand what you are saying now. The German player can accelerate research towards the Ta-152 at a much faster rate than was historically possible. Basically the Ta-52 can show up too early in the pbem game, making it highly unbalanced. Your proposal is to replace some of the lesser-known German aircraft with later version of the FW-190. Both pbem players agree that the German player must have researched these first before building the Ta-152's. None of these changes affect the computer German player because it follows the historical research and production dates. Is this correct?

Correct. What we (Turner and I)would like to do is change a couple of the obscure and never built things in the German tree with the FW 190D-11 and the TA 152A. This combined with a house rule requiring predecessor aircraft to be in combat before production can be changed to successor aircraft. This will keep the research induced onus on the allies to press the attack while limiting somewhat the instant death result from a less than perfect strategy.

[K 19]

Sounds good, and shouldn't be too difficult to implement.

[TaggedYa]

If you can change the upgrade path numbers in the database then you can fix the Century Unit fail to upgrade bug which is actually a bug that also effects a lot of things in AI games. Basically what happened is they assigned a lot of aircraft upgrades to gun pack or field conversion types. Then they changed the system so that those types wouldn't ever be in the pool (the field conversion is striped and they return to the pool as base type). To fix the problem all of the effected types need their upgrade target changed to the base type not the conversion type.

I can make a list for you of what types need changed. Let me know if you can make that change.

An example: The Bf 109G-6/R6 is AC# 9. It upgrades to AC# 14 the Bf109G-14/R6. As there are never any of #14 in the pool the units using the 109G-6/R6 will never upgrade. A human player can upgrade them manually or can remove the cannons and then they will upgrade normally but the AI will fly them forever and will keep the 109G-6 in production forever to support them. To fix this particular instance of this bug you can just change the AC# 9 upgrade to AC# 13 the standard 109G-14. An even better way to fix it would be to set the upgrade to AC# 40 the FW190A-8. This wouldn't effect a human player but would help the AI to move its anti-bomber work to a better class of aircraft. This is an example of what I meant when I said we need to be looking to help the AI provide more challenge.

[K 19]

ORIGINAL: rob89

Hi all,

I see you all know very well the database structure

Two questions :

1) Could someone explain to me the meaning of the data-fields in the 'device-sub-database', for the case of factories

For ex. : K19, please, what is the meaning of your statement :

<<I have also slighly increased engine manufacturing requirements to help keep aircraft production numbers down a bit. >>

Are you referring to those parameters, or other issues ?


2) Do you think it's possible to introduce a different 'device-type' to model the first german surface-to-air missiles ?

thank you in advance

Rob

Hi.

1. I originally increased engine requirements to slow down production, but will no longer be doing that.

2. Yes, I think it's possible. I have successfuly added new aircraft types to the database. Should also be possible for new weapon types. Implementing all the locations where the missiles would be based on the map and what they would protect would be very time-consuming though.

[K 19]

ORIGINAL: TaggedYa

If you can change the upgrade path numbers in the database then you can fix the Century Unit fail to upgrade bug which is actually a bug that also effects a lot of things in AI games. Basically what happened is they assigned a lot of aircraft upgrades to gun pack or field conversion types. Then they changed the system so that those types wouldn't ever be in the pool (the field conversion is striped and they return to the pool as base type). To fix the problem all of the effected types need their upgrade target changed to the base type not the conversion type.

I can make a list for you of what types need changed. Let me know if you can make that change.

An example: The Bf 109G-6/R6 is AC# 9. It upgrades to AC# 14 the Bf109G-14/R6. As there are never any of #14 in the pool the units using the 109G-6/R6 will never upgrade. A human player can upgrade them manually or can remove the cannons and then they will upgrade normally but the AI will fly them forever and will keep the 109G-6 in production forever to support them. To fix this particular instance of this bug you can just change the AC# 9 upgrade to AC# 13 the standard 109G-14. An even better way to fix it would be to set the upgrade to AC# 40 the FW190A-8. This wouldn't effect a human player but would help the AI to move its anti-bomber work to a better class of aircraft. This is an example of what I meant when I said we need to be looking to help the AI provide more challenge.

I understand. It is very easy to change what aircraft upgrade to. If simply doing this would fix a lot of the game's problems, I'm all for it. A complete upgrade list would be very helpful. Thank you.

[K 19]

And Turner or TaggedYa, please provide a list of which aircraft will be replacing which. For example, the Ta-52A will be replacing what obscure aircraft?

[TaggedYa]

The 109G-6/R6 I already covered.

AC# 18 the Bf 109T-2 upgrades to AC# 7 the 109G-5/AS It should change to AC# 6 the 109G-5. This is for the AI, humans can upgrade to whatever they like. There is no source in the game for replacements and the unit that is using them just runs out of planes.

AC# 39 the Fw 190A-6/R1 upgrades to AC# 43 the Fw 190A-8/R8 which can never exist in the pool. It can be changed to AC# 40 the Fw 190A-8 which does pool. Or AC# 42 which might pool, I think it does but it will have to be checked.

AC# 125 the Me 410A-1/U2 upgrades to AC# 129 the Me 410B-2/U4 which doesn't pool. It can be changed to AC# 128 the Me 410B-2/U2 which does pool.

Here are the real bugs we all were looking for:
AC# 131 the Bf 109G-6/U4N upgrades to AC# 14 the Bf 109G-14/R6 which doesn't pool. As a human can't change the night fighters to day fighters this locks all 109 flying night units in there night role. The dreaded "Century units won't upgrade" bug. Change it to AC# 13 and all will be well.

AC# 133 the Fw 190A-5/U2 upgrades to AC# 43, the Fw 190A-8/R8. Change it to AC# 40 the Fw 190A-8 and all will be well. (I think that you could also use 42 the A-8/R7 version but I am not sure it pools)

That's all that I can legitimately call bugs. There are changes that could be made to help out the AI but that is a mod not a bug fix.