I like using Japan's arty for Ground striking. Sure it fails, a lot. It also has as good if not better chance than most aircraft.
Considering air tactical factors range from 1-3. With 3 be very rare. I find arty to be very useful for GS. Especially if using oil option. Its always gonna be a crap shoot. Flipped arty is normally stacked. Those flipped air units are sometimes vulnerable and all alone when the front moves.
The more i think about it, the 2-3 arty is starting to look more appetizing.
Chinese map and Japanese set up
Moderator: Shannon V. OKeets
RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
“We never felt like we were losing until we were actually dead.”
Marcus Luttrell
RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
JP has very few 3 ground strike factor aircraft. Most of their aircraft are 2s or 1s, so the 2 ARTY is just a good. But do you know that ARTY can bombard across a river, meaning it can participate in an attack and it's not halved for attacking across the river if it bombards (which flips it regardless of the outcome of the attack). An arty can also be used for offensive or DEFENSIVE ground support of all hexes adjacent to it. Attack next to an ARTY and that ARTY may combined into the defense of that attack. A 33-11 suddenly becomes a 33-13. That's a 2-1 vs. a 3 -1. Big difference.
RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
To me, 2-1 and 3-2 attacks as a matter of some routine is not acceptable odds. You likely won't get flips given the crummy Japanese tactical numbers. (20% chance most of the time). I think most of the time you are better off putting those points into upping your combat total and you would be better off for it either in a increased chance of a fractional odds up or just flat out enough for another odds up.
On a 3:2 with no pluses, the attacker has a 40% chance of losing 2 units and the defender has a 50% chance of taking no losses at all. +1 means a 30% chance of losing 2 units and 40% chance for the defender to suffer no losses.
On a 2:1 with no pluses, the attacker has a 30% chance of losing 2 units and the defender has a 40% chance of no losses. +1, the attacker has a 20% chance of losing 2 units and 30% chance for the defender to lose nothing.
I can't believe the 2D10 table is any better, especially considering the attacker could lose 3 units.
On a 3:2 with no pluses, the attacker has a 40% chance of losing 2 units and the defender has a 50% chance of taking no losses at all. +1 means a 30% chance of losing 2 units and 40% chance for the defender to suffer no losses.
On a 2:1 with no pluses, the attacker has a 30% chance of losing 2 units and the defender has a 40% chance of no losses. +1, the attacker has a 20% chance of losing 2 units and 30% chance for the defender to lose nothing.
I can't believe the 2D10 table is any better, especially considering the attacker could lose 3 units.
RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
On standard maps against a Chinese opponent that runs back to the mountains, 2-1 or 3-2 is about the best you are going to get. The Japanese player focuses on the resources and rail lines in the south, Changsha and Sian as initial objectives.
Generally, you take a hex a turn when the weather cooperates. Everything is focused on that single hex. 4-5 planes ground strike along with ARTY in an attempt to flip the units. There's always HQ support in addition. If things go well, you can get a +8 maybe a +10 against the hex which is a good chance to take the hex, often losing a unit and flipping. By late 40, Japan needs to start focusing on it's overall strategic objectives (attacking Russia along with GE, collapsing CW with IT/GE) and starting moving into a defensive posture unless trying to collapse China. By mid-late 41, Japan needs to start preparing and fortifying it's perimeter against USA, which again can force it to move into a defensive posture.
With these maps, China is less likely to stack up. Can Japan stack up? It needs to get to higher odds, but will it have enough units and protect it's flanks. I'm still not too worried about Chinese units behind lines, at least through 1940, as Japanese reinforcements from the home islands will be coming in to deal with them.
Generally, you take a hex a turn when the weather cooperates. Everything is focused on that single hex. 4-5 planes ground strike along with ARTY in an attempt to flip the units. There's always HQ support in addition. If things go well, you can get a +8 maybe a +10 against the hex which is a good chance to take the hex, often losing a unit and flipping. By late 40, Japan needs to start focusing on it's overall strategic objectives (attacking Russia along with GE, collapsing CW with IT/GE) and starting moving into a defensive posture unless trying to collapse China. By mid-late 41, Japan needs to start preparing and fortifying it's perimeter against USA, which again can force it to move into a defensive posture.
With these maps, China is less likely to stack up. Can Japan stack up? It needs to get to higher odds, but will it have enough units and protect it's flanks. I'm still not too worried about Chinese units behind lines, at least through 1940, as Japanese reinforcements from the home islands will be coming in to deal with them.
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Shannon V. OKeets
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RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
In my opinion, the Japanese have two goals in China: (1) kill at least 2 Chinese units/turn and (2) take resources away from China for use by Japan. Using a strategic bomber to cut into China's build points is also a possibility - but don't lose the bomber!
If Japan can achieve the first goal, then the Chinese forces keep getting smaller and smaller. Japan should build land units early in the war (with a few, but limited naval builds). Eventually Japan will have some very strong corps on the map that can form up into a fearsome attack force. The fundamental idea here is that Japan strives for numerical superiority in land forces.
As many have said above, Chinese units in the clear are dead meat. In the mountains, all the Chinese units are double in strength. Why wouldn't you want all your units to be twice as strong?
If Japan can achieve the first goal, then the Chinese forces keep getting smaller and smaller. Japan should build land units early in the war (with a few, but limited naval builds). Eventually Japan will have some very strong corps on the map that can form up into a fearsome attack force. The fundamental idea here is that Japan strives for numerical superiority in land forces.
As many have said above, Chinese units in the clear are dead meat. In the mountains, all the Chinese units are double in strength. Why wouldn't you want all your units to be twice as strong?
Steve
Perfection is an elusive goal.
Perfection is an elusive goal.
RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
Ok, so round two in a initial setup. Chinese abandon the middle and stack up in the south while giving the Chi-coms some support in the north temporarily. Most of the Chinese units that can move are in the extreme north or south.
The Japanese respond with nothing in the middle to speak of, a screen against the Chi-coms to be augmented by the motorized infantry and HQ coming in from Manchuria and probably a army from the south as soon as possible. The 1-4 infantry division and 1-4 Marine are to flip hexes in order to open up the rail lines north and south. I went through and did a count. The Japanese start with around 60 combat factors in theater with 20 or so more coming from Japan and another 10 coming over the border from Manchura.
In this plan, the Japanese are looking to make a huge push in the south (why they started the 8-3 infantry in Canton). The opening Japanese attack will be on the mountains just west of Changsha. This will be a tough nut to crack as it has 10 points worth of defense. The Japanese have 35 points worth of attackers that will be brought to bear along with a pile of air. The Chinese fighter is around, but the Japanese can bring both theirs to the party. There is enough to take a crack at a ground strike and to pile up the combat totals so that a 4-1 straight up or a 4-1 +1 is possible. The Japanese only have a 10% chance of losing 2 units and a 60% chance straight up (or 70% chance with a +1) to take the hex.
In retrospect, I would place a unit to the west of the mountains; with the knowledge I may lose it, or swap in a 4 point army with the 2 point divisional to give the defenders 12 on defense. Oh well.
At any rate, I don't know that I like this Chinese setup any better than the last one.
The Japanese respond with nothing in the middle to speak of, a screen against the Chi-coms to be augmented by the motorized infantry and HQ coming in from Manchuria and probably a army from the south as soon as possible. The 1-4 infantry division and 1-4 Marine are to flip hexes in order to open up the rail lines north and south. I went through and did a count. The Japanese start with around 60 combat factors in theater with 20 or so more coming from Japan and another 10 coming over the border from Manchura.
In this plan, the Japanese are looking to make a huge push in the south (why they started the 8-3 infantry in Canton). The opening Japanese attack will be on the mountains just west of Changsha. This will be a tough nut to crack as it has 10 points worth of defense. The Japanese have 35 points worth of attackers that will be brought to bear along with a pile of air. The Chinese fighter is around, but the Japanese can bring both theirs to the party. There is enough to take a crack at a ground strike and to pile up the combat totals so that a 4-1 straight up or a 4-1 +1 is possible. The Japanese only have a 10% chance of losing 2 units and a 60% chance straight up (or 70% chance with a +1) to take the hex.
In retrospect, I would place a unit to the west of the mountains; with the knowledge I may lose it, or swap in a 4 point army with the 2 point divisional to give the defenders 12 on defense. Oh well.
At any rate, I don't know that I like this Chinese setup any better than the last one.
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RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
Definitely better than the first one.
I'd put that 5-3 in the south in the mountain hex to the west. It still ZOCs the rail line so the Japanese can't use it, but now you're doubled.
Defend ChangSha. It's critical. Stick both of the Garrisons in there and throw in a third unit. (The gun or the div.) The Japanese cannot advance easily without Changsha. The longer you hold it the better. (I tried to attack through the south without ChangSha and supply for the Japanese is terrible.)
Get the 4-3 in the south out of the forest and put it in a mountain. Get those factors doubled.
At least that's my take. I've only run two solitaire games so far and still don't have this map worked out.
I'd put that 5-3 in the south in the mountain hex to the west. It still ZOCs the rail line so the Japanese can't use it, but now you're doubled.
Defend ChangSha. It's critical. Stick both of the Garrisons in there and throw in a third unit. (The gun or the div.) The Japanese cannot advance easily without Changsha. The longer you hold it the better. (I tried to attack through the south without ChangSha and supply for the Japanese is terrible.)
Get the 4-3 in the south out of the forest and put it in a mountain. Get those factors doubled.
At least that's my take. I've only run two solitaire games so far and still don't have this map worked out.
RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
I'm not sure if this is an issue within MWIF, but the China has already been at war with Japan for years, so their MIL units can start anywhere. They don't have to start on their respective cities. It's also why China has 3 MIL units for cities already conquered by the Japanese. So that MIL in Kumming (far south) isn't doing anything. If the Japanese want to invade Pakhoi and move up from there, you'll have time to respond and it won't get them much.
JP will need the rail line through Hengyang to use both resources. In the south, I'd put the 5-3 and 4-3 where the 3-3 current is and stack the 3-3 and 2-2 MIL to the hex southeast of Kweilin (west of where the 5-3 and 4-3 should be). You'll be able to build or rail a unit into Kweilin to hold your flank and supply source. That will provide 18 points of defense with the 5-3 and 4-3 directly in the route of advance and another 10 points of defense to guard it's flank. If JP tries to flank to the west of this, it will take time and he'll have to maintain supply and you'll have time to respond. If he goes straight up to Hengyang, he'll have to attack it. I'd put a division on the 5-3, 4-3 stack as well and that will secure your south as best as possible.
In the middle, I'd abandon Changsha and stack everything on the hex to the WEST of Changsha protected by the Yangtsu (spelling?) river and the hex where the 3-1 GAR currently is and the 3rd hex northwest of the 3-1 GAR where the INF DIV is. These 3 hexes are all protected by river. If I have an extra unit, I'd put it to the southwest of Ichang (where that 4-2) is to protect the northern flank.
In the north, I'd place the 7-3 and 4-2 lan chow MIL in the mountain hex to the east of Sian. I'd place Mao Mao 1 hex to the northeast of Sian, protected by river and a single hex attack against it. And I'd place the remaining 2 units 2 hexes northeast of Sian, where the 4-1 GAR is. For the Japanese to attack this will require moving into mountains and flipping, so there isn't going to be any quick assaults. I'm not sure yet, but those 2 Nationalist units might not even be needed.
There's huge sections of terrain that you don't even need to worry about, such as the area around Nanyang and all terrain west of that. Japan isn't going that way as it requires way too many HQ and gets them nada.
The initial goal of China is to protect units. You should be willing to give up Changsha and Sian as well as the southern resource hexes if things look bad. You do want to make it a fight though. By stacking up, you are protecting your units and you are forcing Japan to commit to an area. They don't have enough initially to push everywhere. You'll be building and reinforcing. So give terrain if needed to buy time. Time is on the Chinese side.
JP will need the rail line through Hengyang to use both resources. In the south, I'd put the 5-3 and 4-3 where the 3-3 current is and stack the 3-3 and 2-2 MIL to the hex southeast of Kweilin (west of where the 5-3 and 4-3 should be). You'll be able to build or rail a unit into Kweilin to hold your flank and supply source. That will provide 18 points of defense with the 5-3 and 4-3 directly in the route of advance and another 10 points of defense to guard it's flank. If JP tries to flank to the west of this, it will take time and he'll have to maintain supply and you'll have time to respond. If he goes straight up to Hengyang, he'll have to attack it. I'd put a division on the 5-3, 4-3 stack as well and that will secure your south as best as possible.
In the middle, I'd abandon Changsha and stack everything on the hex to the WEST of Changsha protected by the Yangtsu (spelling?) river and the hex where the 3-1 GAR currently is and the 3rd hex northwest of the 3-1 GAR where the INF DIV is. These 3 hexes are all protected by river. If I have an extra unit, I'd put it to the southwest of Ichang (where that 4-2) is to protect the northern flank.
In the north, I'd place the 7-3 and 4-2 lan chow MIL in the mountain hex to the east of Sian. I'd place Mao Mao 1 hex to the northeast of Sian, protected by river and a single hex attack against it. And I'd place the remaining 2 units 2 hexes northeast of Sian, where the 4-1 GAR is. For the Japanese to attack this will require moving into mountains and flipping, so there isn't going to be any quick assaults. I'm not sure yet, but those 2 Nationalist units might not even be needed.
There's huge sections of terrain that you don't even need to worry about, such as the area around Nanyang and all terrain west of that. Japan isn't going that way as it requires way too many HQ and gets them nada.
The initial goal of China is to protect units. You should be willing to give up Changsha and Sian as well as the southern resource hexes if things look bad. You do want to make it a fight though. By stacking up, you are protecting your units and you are forcing Japan to commit to an area. They don't have enough initially to push everywhere. You'll be building and reinforcing. So give terrain if needed to buy time. Time is on the Chinese side.
RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
I'm changing this second post because the south is very interesting. Honestly, Kweilin and the area northwest of it can be left undefended because it will take a JP HQ and long time to march that direction and without Hengyang is pretty much useless.
Hengyang is the key to the south and also protects the middle. I'm torn on where to stack up the chinese because the Japanese can flank anything that's too forward. But it's also a bummer to give up such nice terrain. I'm wondering if I'd place the 5-3 and 4-3 and div to the moutain hex to the WEST of Hengyan. The 3-3 and 2-2 MIL to the mountain hex Northwest of Hengyang to help complete the defense of the Yangtzu river and link with the middle. Bring the 2 nationalist units from the north to defend the middle. Then build around Kweillin, etc., to threaten the Japanese flanks, or Changsha to help defend the middle.
Hengyang is the key to the south and also protects the middle. I'm torn on where to stack up the chinese because the Japanese can flank anything that's too forward. But it's also a bummer to give up such nice terrain. I'm wondering if I'd place the 5-3 and 4-3 and div to the moutain hex to the WEST of Hengyan. The 3-3 and 2-2 MIL to the mountain hex Northwest of Hengyang to help complete the defense of the Yangtzu river and link with the middle. Bring the 2 nationalist units from the north to defend the middle. Then build around Kweillin, etc., to threaten the Japanese flanks, or Changsha to help defend the middle.
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Majorball68
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RE: Chinese map and Japanese set up
Better to defend fwd as much as possible. Should get ZOC on Canton in the south with the 4-3 behind the river. You only have to retreat back when there is a threat of being eliminated. Japs only have limited ground strike capabilities early so even with a ground strike stops the 4-3 retreating back its going to take a little time for the Japs to assemble the firepower to kill it. The 5-3 is exposed and risks getting destroyed first impulse. Chengchow in the north should be defend as long as the risks to units protecting the flanks is limited. The Chinese Communists can help protect the rive line to the west of Chengchow. Same situation here when faced with elimination fall back however force an attack on the city. Changsha can be defended from the first river line better than the second. Force the Japs to attack or push around the sides. When they do just fall back to the next river. I like to defend all the mountains forward as possible and just fall back when the risk of elimination is greatest or leave it in the Mountain if you need time to reorganize.
Make use of ZOC to limit advances to 1 hex at a time. Its a mistake to give up ground for nothing. Even a Corps in the mountains on the coast at CHEKIANG forces the Japs to either deploy forces here to kill them or garrision the port to protect the rail lines. Its hard for the Japs to flip units in mountains so attacking double strength units requires significant firepower unless they are prepared to do risky rolls which will inflict costly damage on the Japs.
An early capture of the port Pakhoi in the south can stretch the Chinese thin and there is a resource the Japs can stop the Chinese getting very early.
Make use of ZOC to limit advances to 1 hex at a time. Its a mistake to give up ground for nothing. Even a Corps in the mountains on the coast at CHEKIANG forces the Japs to either deploy forces here to kill them or garrision the port to protect the rail lines. Its hard for the Japs to flip units in mountains so attacking double strength units requires significant firepower unless they are prepared to do risky rolls which will inflict costly damage on the Japs.
An early capture of the port Pakhoi in the south can stretch the Chinese thin and there is a resource the Japs can stop the Chinese getting very early.