Speedy's Japanese war discussion

[Speedysteve]

Hi All,

Here's my Navy plane streamlined list. What are your thoughts?

Fighters
-----------

A6M2
A6M3
A6M3a
A6M5
A6M5b
A6M5c
A7M2
N1K1-J
N1K2-J
J7W1

Night Fighters
----------------

J1N1-S
J1N1-Sa
C6N1-S

Dive Bombers
--------------

D3A1
D3A2
D4Y1
D4Y2
B7A2

Level Bombers
--------------

G4M1
G4M2
G4M2a
G4M3a
P1Y1
P1Y2
P1Y3

Recon
-------------

C5M2
J1N1-C
C6N1
C6N2

Transport
-----------

L3Y2
H6K2-L
H6K4-L
H8K2-L
L2D2

Patrol
----------

H6K4
H6K5
H8K1
H8K2

Float Plane
--------------

E13A1
E14Y1
E15K1

Torpedo Bomber
----------------

B5N2
B6N1
B6N2
B6N2a

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

Re: IJA Aircraft

Some thoughts.

The Ki-94-II has an altitude advantage over all Allied aircraft. It also more durable than the Ki-83 and 1E rather than 2E but with, effectively, half the guns. It may be worth having some of these alongside the Ki-83.

The Ki-45 KAId is slower than the B-29 so I'm not sure how useful it is as a night fighter.

The Ki-49-Ia may be a better ASW platform than the Ki-49-IIa as it, eventually, gets a MAD and always uses less supply.

The Ki-32 uses up obsolete engines and is fine for early use in China and the Philippines.

The Ki-115b may be a good late war 1E bomber both for Kamikaze use and against the Soviets.

Re: CS Conversion

I think you you need to expand Tokyo repair yards to size 50 which costs 44,000 supply.

Ki-32's thanks I'll add some of these for production

Ki-115b's - ditto. Good idea.

Tokyo - yes. I plan to expand this to size 50 in due course.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Ok. I've created my IJ Army plane shortlist. My current thought is to convert/stop the other plane types as I want to streamline my planes. We're playing with realistic R&D. Is it wise to streamline so much and to convert/stop everything else?

Here's my plans:

Fighters
----------
Ki-43-IC
Ki-44-IIa - Just research this and leave some factories researching the next version after it's actively producing. No need to begin researching the IIc since it's an upgrade and those factories repair quicker researching the closer model.
Ki-43-IIb
Ki-44-IIc
Ki-84a
Ki-84r - This is an upgrade from the Ki-84a, so just R n D that and go through the sequence. You should research the 'b' model though, as it's not an upgrade from the 'a.'
Ki-83

Fighter-Bombers
----------------

Really limited numbers of:

Ki-45 KAIa - 30/month will get you through with ~4 groups working mostly bases out of sweep range. I do like FB for their guns and durability against 4E, especially early when nothing else is around yet with centerline canons.
Ki-102b

Night Fighters - Don't stop here! Build as many as you can! [:D] Some groups only upgrade to a certain model to 'become' NF groups. The first for the Army are upgraded FB groups, to the Nick 'd.' The Dinah III KAI is also worth a look as it's much faster than the Nick and well before the Randy, and several recon groups upgrade to it only. Make sure you R n D the Irving NF for the IJN groups. You'll need a lot of those, and the radar equipped version is actually okay.
-----------------

Ki-45 KAId
Ki-102c

Level Bombers
--------------

Ki-21-IIa
Ki-49-IIa
Ki-67-Ia (T)
Ki-74-I

Recon - The Judy recon is worth some R n D as it get to 21 hexes and will arrive before the Dinah III if you have a 30 sized factory going. Can be worth it in late 42 as so much can happen around that time.
----------

Ki-46-II
Ki-46-III

Transport
-------------

Ki-57-I
Ki-57-II
Ki-49-II KAI - yes.

Thoughts?

I realize I am making comment on your Army list about IJN planes but it's hard for me to think of the two completely independently.

Which IJN fighter are you thinking about, the George or the Jack?

Hi Obvert,

Ki-44-IIa - Just so I'm clear you're saying it's best to research IIa, then when it's producing move some of these R&D facs to the IIb, then move some to the IIc when IIb is producing?

Ki-84 - is it worth going for the 84b as well? I assumed it was worth using the 84a and only then research the 84r?

Night fighters - Thanks. I'll add the Dinah to the list.

I'm focussing on the George. No Jacks.

[pws1225]

Good thread Speedy, thanks. I too am getting back into a PBEM as Japan after a two year hiatus so the tips you're gleaning are helping to get me back on track too.

Regards, Paul

[Speedysteve]

A couple of generic Q's as I'm trying to get my thoughts straight:

1.) Is it always best to R&D just the next model in a line rather than any later models?

2.) I'm accurate in saying moving facs/research plants along the same line cost no supply/facs don't get damaged etc?

3.) Am I ok/wise to totally remove the facs producing/researching plane models I have no aim to use at all?

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: pws1225

Good thread Speedy, thanks. I too am getting back into a PBEM as Japan after a two year hiatus so the tips you're gleaning are helping to get me back on track too.

Regards, Paul

NP. Feel free to chime in with any questions you have

[Spidery]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

A couple of generic Q's as I'm trying to get my thoughts straight:

1.) Is it always best to R&D just the next model in a line rather than any later models?

2.) I'm accurate in saying moving facs/research plants along the same line cost no supply/facs don't get damaged etc?

3.) Am I ok/wise to totally remove the facs producing/researching plane models I have no aim to use at all?

1. Always set the R&D factory to its final size and research the first model in the upgrade path. When it is fully repaired change to the model you are interested in. As you approach having a model complete its R&D, consider moving some factories down the same line so as to avoid having excess R&D when its month of availability arrives.

2. Correct as long as you can do it stepwise. So there is a problem if the Ki-44-IIa is in production and the Ki-44-IIc is researched before the Ki-44-IIb because you can't move direct from Ki-44-IIa to IIc and can't change from IIa to IIb as that would be from production to R&D.

3. Yes, but only when you know what you want to change them to. So at the start you may keep some obsolete factories, not producing, and change them as models of interest become available.

For engines, it is worth trying to get these up to an optimal size early and then keeping them producing rather than expanding them later (same supply and HI cost but you produce for longer). However, the early availability of supply can make this infeasible. You need 500 engines in the pool and sufficient available spare production to get the engine bonus to R&D and it may be worth economising on aircraft production in the first few months.

[Speedysteve]

That's great. Thanks Spidery.

1.) It's tricky to know how many you want to produce later on down the line though as it's largely dependent on losses and the state of the air war surely?

2.) Understood. Thanks.

3.) Makes sense. Thanks.

I'm a lot clearer on things. Once I have received a sanity check on my planned IJN Air production Ill begin to implement this into my on going first turn!

Thanks all.

[MrKane]

Here are my 2 cents base on my experience against very good allied player.(GreyJoy)

IJA ...

Fighters
----------
Ki-43-Ic - a few just to cover time when you wait for K-44
Ki-44-IIa - a more than few just to cover time when you wait for K-44-IIc. .
Ki-43-IIb - waist of time
Ki-44-IIc - Must have it as soon as possible. Very good fighters until '44, I am still holding Burma with it and some help from small amount Ki-84.
Ki-84a - skip it go for next
Ki-84r - real air-superiority fighter, great as offensive weapon, hard to keep fly, but in 44/45 it is the best you can have
In hand a very experienced pilots can do miracles. Just my last turn:

Morning Air attack on Koepang , at 68,116

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 11 NM, estimated altitude 41,270 feet.
Estimated time to target is 2 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-84r Frank x 49

Allied aircraft
Spitfire VIII x 4
Kittyhawk III x 5
Spitfire Vc Trop x 28
Spitfire VIII x 5
Kittyhawk III x 4
Kittyhawk IV x 8
P-38H Lightning x 9
P-38J Lightning x 5
P-40N5 Warhawk x 6
P-51A Mustang x 6
F4U-1 Corsair x 4
F4U-1A Corsair x 8
F6F-3 Hellcat x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-84r Frank: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk III: 1 destroyed
Spitfire Vc Trop: 5 destroyed
Kittyhawk III: 2 destroyed
Kittyhawk IV: 2 destroyed
P-38H Lightning: 3 destroyed
P-38J Lightning: 3 destroyed
P-40N5 Warhawk: 2 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 2 destroyed
F6F-3 Hellcat: 3 destroyed


Ki-83 - I am sill waiting for it, I hope to be good defender, to expensive to to loose in late war

Ki-94-II - same like Ki-83. I hope will replace Ki-84 as air superiority fighter. Clime rate is to low to be use as defensive fighter.

Ki-100-II - go strait for it, just skip all R&D Ki-61, quite capable replacement for K-44-IIc


Fighter-Bombers
----------------

Really limited numbers of:

Ki-45 KAIa
Ki-102b

Good to bombing China, some use as anti 4e bombers, generally way to get more NF groups.

Night Fighters
-----------------

Ki-45 KAId - Fast but without firepower to do any good, luck of armor means a lot of losses
Ki-102c - No choice, you just need it.


Level Bombers
--------------

Ki-21-IIa - crew killer, especially if you play DBB scenario where Allied heavy flak works like Patriot missiles.
Ki-49-IIa - the only one I am using, very good medium bomber, not use in late war
Ki-67-Ia (T) - looks good, but it is difficult to make it ready, and there is not a lot of occasions in late war to use it. to expensive for Kami.
Ki-74-I - not use for it,

It seems you forgot about Ki-119, the only cheap and good(800Kg AP bomb) Kami IJA airframe.


Recon
----------

Ki-46-II & Ki-46-III - need a lot of them, easy targets for allied flack, even on max alt

Transport
-------------

Ki-57-I
Ki-57-II
Ki-49-II KAI


IJN ...

Fighters
-----------

A6M2
A6M3
A6M3a
A6M5
you can stop here

A6M5b
A6M5c

A7M2 - not great as for '45 fighter, but no other choice unless you playing RA 6+

N1K1-J - skip it got for N1K2-J
N1K2-J - good fighter for 43 & 44, can fight do good against all expect p-47

J7W1 - did not tested it yet, lack of range make is only fit to interceptor role and SR 3 will make it only first day interceptor , at 2nd day it will be great ground target for B-24

Dive Bombers
--------------

D3A1 - must
D3A2 - skipped
D4Y1 - skipped
D4Y3 - the one you lake to have, SR 1, range + 500Kg bomb
D4Y4 - Kami

B7A2 - replacement for Kate & Jill

Level Bombers
--------------

G4M1
G4M2
G4M2a
G4M3a
all great as TB at the beginning, bad LB as it carry just 2 x 250Kg

P1Y1 - do not do it SR 4, go for next
P1Y2 - very nice TB for late war
P1Y3 - only if you have Ohka in your scenario


Transport
-----------

L3Y2
H6K2-L
H6K4-L
H8K2-L - my favorite
L2D2 - my favorite

Patrol
----------

H6K4
H6K5
H8K1
H8K2
all are my favorite transport planes, allied cap & flak shooting down them in numbers that make it to expensive to be naval search plane, you can have G4M in half price

[Speedysteve]

Thanks Mr.Kane

Interesting. A few thoughts my end:

Ki-43-Ic - a few just to cover time when you wait for K-44
Ki-44-IIa - a more than few just to cover time when you wait for K-44-IIc - will surely need quite a few of these as I can't go from IIa direct to IIc (due to fac transitions having to go from IIb to IIc?) As such earliest can get IIc is 8/43?
Ki-43-IIb - waist of time
Ki-44-IIc - Must have it as soon as possible. Very good fighters until '44, I am still holding Burma with it and some help from small amount Ki-84.
Ki-84a - skip it go for next - b version is not nominally out until 3/45 so a big wait (excluding R&D advances though). Surely best to go for a version and get that a few months earlier then work on b version?
Ki-84r - real air-superiority fighter, great as offensive weapon, hard to keep fly, but in 44/45 it is the best you can have

Ki-100-II - go strait for it, just skip all R&D Ki-61, quite capable replacement for K-44-IIc - Maybe I'm mistaken but with this being the last end of the Tony line (which I agree don't plan to go for) wouldn't I need to research the earlier Tony's first to be able to move the facs along the chain without penalty?

Ki-119 - I discounted it due to it's very short range mainly?

IJN ...

Fighters
-----------

A6M2
A6M3
A6M3a
A6M5
you can stop here

A6M5b
A6M5c


Surely A6M5c is worth it due to the armour and preservation of pilots?

N1K1-J - skip it got for N1K2-J - Maybe once more I'm misunderstanding the R&D fac advance but wouldn't it be better to for N1K1 as facs can move on to N1K2 free of charge?
N1K2-J - good fighter for 43 & 44, can fight do good against all expect p-47

P1Y3 - good point. No Okha so removed from my list.

Thanks for thoughts and advice [8D]

[Spidery]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

That's great. Thanks Spidery.

1.) It's tricky to know how many you want to produce later on down the line though as it's largely dependent on losses and the state of the air war surely?

Sorry, I may have confused matters. Generally, set an R&D factory to size 30 as soon as you want it to start repairing (this makes optimal use of your R&D capability). If you only have enough supply to expand 30 factory points expand one to size 30 and leave the other at 0 rather than expanding both to 15 and then, later, growing them some more.

For engine and aircraft production, yes you are going to be heavily dependent upon how the air war works out. On some engines (e.g., Ha-35) there is a good balance because they can be used up late war. Others (e.g. Ha-34, Ha-31) are a problem because they become obsolete.

MrKane is giving mostly the advice I am planning against him[;)].

Not sure about the Ki-119, can it use its 800kg bomb with drop tanks? It has a very short range otherwise. Don't know how it compares against the Ki-115b.

There is little point in R&D for the Ohka armed bombers as they can't be used until the Ohka is available.

I can't see the point of any G4M after the first because by the time you can have them you can get the P1Y2. In the time before that, I would expect the range advantage of the G3M3 to out way the slight durability bonus of the G4M1.

[Speedysteve]

Hi All,

Further general question as Mr. Kane's post made me think I'm not quite sure on R&D process.

What's the best approach to R&D on a particular line?

Take the Tony line. Mr. Kane's recommendation of going for Ki-100-II made me think surely I can't just research that model (neglecting the earlier Ki-61's) as surely this can cause a problem if the Ki-100-II is bumped up and arrives before earlier Tony models then doesn't it cause problems shifting the facs from R&D into live?

Maybe I'm mistaken?

[Spidery]

Ki-100-II - go strait for it, just skip all R&D Ki-61, quite capable replacement for K-44-IIc - Maybe I'm mistaken but with this being the last end of the Tony line (which I agree don't plan to go for) wouldn't I need to research the earlier Tony's first to be able to move the facs along the chain without penalty?

No. You set the factories to research the first in line. Ki-61-1a. When the factory is fully repaired you save the game (in case a finger slips) and then, in one turn, change it to first research the next in line, then the next, and so on to the Ki-100-II.

Suppose you have 5 factories doing this and have 5 excess Ha-33 engines being produced each day. It takes about until 42/7, on average, to get the factories repaired at that point the Ki-100-II is 38 months away. Each month you advance that date forward by 3 months from R&D. So in about 10 months research is completed, so that is 43/5.

--

Similarly, for the Ki-84 if you have 5 factories on that it will take about until 43/4 to repair Ki-84a factories. If you then research that and when that is available change to the Ki-84r to research that you will get the Ki-84a about 43/6 and the Ki-84r about 44/1. If you go straight for the Ki-84r you will get the Ki-84r 43/11 and never bother with the Ki-84a. Which is better is a judgement call.

[Speedysteve]

ORIGINAL: Spidery

ORIGINAL: Speedy

That's great. Thanks Spidery.

1.) It's tricky to know how many you want to produce later on down the line though as it's largely dependent on losses and the state of the air war surely?

Sorry, I may have confused matters. Generally, set an R&D factory to size 30 as soon as you want it to start repairing (this makes optimal use of your R&D capability). If you only have enough supply to expand 30 factory points expand one to size 30 and leave the other at 0 rather than expanding both to 15 and then, later, growing them some more.

For engine and aircraft production, yes you are going to be heavily dependent upon how the air war works out. On some engines (e.g., Ha-35) there is a good balance because they can be used up late war. Others (e.g. Ha-34, Ha-31) are a problem because they become obsolete.

MrKane is giving mostly the advice I am planning against him[;)].

Not sure about the Ki-119, can it use its 800kg bomb with drop tanks? It has a very short range otherwise. Don't know how it compares against the Ki-115b.

There is little point in R&D for the Ohka armed bombers as they can't be used until the Ohka is available.

I can't see the point of any G4M after the first because by the time you can have them you can get the P1Y2. In the time before that, I would expect the range advantage of the G3M3 to out way the slight durability bonus of the G4M1.

Ah ha. Thanks. That helps to know.

Good ideas on the IJN LB's. You're right not much point in going for the later G4M's as can get P1Y2's by then looking at it. I would assume (depending on answer to my last R&D question) then it makes sense to go G3M/G4M > G3M3> P1Y2?

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Thanks Mr.Kane

Interesting. A few thoughts my end:

Ki-43-Ic - a few just to cover time when you wait for K-44
Ki-44-IIa - a more than few just to cover time when you wait for K-44-IIc - will surely need quite a few of these as I can't go from IIa direct to IIc (due to fac transitions having to go from IIb to IIc?) As such earliest can get IIc is 8/43?
True, but faster better for yours pilots

Ki-43-IIb - waist of time
Ki-44-IIc - Must have it as soon as possible. Very good fighters until '44, I am still holding Burma with it and some help from small amount Ki-84.
Ki-84a - skip it go for next - b version is not nominally out until 3/45 so a big wait (excluding R&D advances though). Surely best to go for a version and get that a few months earlier then work on b version?
The next is Ki-84r, you cannot covert Ki-84a factory to Ki-84b. B version is nice but It cannot be advance to early '44, but R version can.
Ki-84r - real air-superiority fighter, great as offensive weapon, hard to keep fly, but in 44/45 it is the best you can have

Ki-100-II - go strait for it, just skip all R&D Ki-61, quite capable replacement for K-44-IIc - Maybe I'm mistaken but with this being the last end of the Tony line (which I agree don't plan to go for) wouldn't I need to research the earlier Tony's first to be able to move the facs along the chain without penalty?
nop, you need first R&D factory Ki-61a then you can convert it to Ki-61b then to next, next ... You do not need complete R&D to move to next airframe

Ki-119 - I discounted it due to it's very short range mainly?

IJN ...

Fighters
-----------

A6M2
A6M3
A6M3a
A6M5
you can stop here

A6M5b
A6M5c


Surely A6M5c is worth it due to the armour and preservation of pilots?
You need zeros for carriers mostly, and A6m5 will do much better due to speed. A6m5c is just easy target for F6F and with durability 27 armor will not safe day for you

N1K1-J - skip it got for N1K2-J - Maybe once more I'm misunderstanding the R&D fac advance but wouldn't it be better to for N1K1 as facs can move on to N1K2 free of charge?
I mean skip R&D, not factory building, ofc you need build factories and convert to N1K2-J.
N1K2-J - good fighter for 43 & 44, can fight do good against all expect p-47

P1Y3 - good point. No Okha so removed from my list.

Thanks for thoughts and advice [8D]

And one more advice, I have invested a lot of resources for high quality pilots training program ( 60% of my air groups ). Now in '44 it really paid off.

[Spidery]

Ki-44-IIa - a more than few just to cover time when you wait for K-44-IIc - will surely need quite a few of these as I can't go from IIa direct to IIc (due to fac transitions having to go from IIb to IIc?) As such earliest can get IIc is 8/43?

Your Ki-44 R&D factories are going to be fully repaired about 42/4. With only two months before it becomes available it probably isn't worth leaving them to R&D this so you change them to the Ki-44-IIc. Assume 5 factories and engine bonus then you can produce this in 42/10. However, for those 6 months you want some Ki-44-IIa so you convert some obsolete factories to produce these.

In 42/10 you allow some R&D Ki-44-IIc factories to roll into production. The Ki-44-IIa factories you can turn off and upgrade them when the Ki-44-IIb is available or you can spend to convert them to something else (which could be the Ki-44-IIc) and rebuild them. If you think that in the second half of 43 you are going to want more Ki-44-IIc production you would probably just leave them shut off, but if you think then you will be producing Ki-100-II and Ki-84r you would probably change them over.

You could leave two R&D factory on the Ki-44-IIb which would get that available 42/11 so there was little down time before you could convert the Ki-44-IIa factories. However, you would be "wasting" some R&D capability researching a useless model and wasting engines on the engine bonus for those factories so it is probably a bad idea.

[Speedysteve]

Ok. Thanks Guys. Trying to get my head around the R&D cycle. It's certainly seems quite complex at first sight!

Thanks for the example Spidery. Helps to provide context etc.

Need to think on this and plan my air properly I can see.

Sheesh. I've spent 6 hours of time today just deliberating on planes and ship conversions (I've converted quite a few AK's as per Mike Solli's AAR). My head is starting to spin though so I might take the baton up again tomorrow. Maybe I'll get around to plotting orders in a few days time at this rate [;)]

[PaxMondo]

Don't overlook the Ki-84b ... very well armed and good range. Separate path, which is unfortunate, but still a good plane ...

Other than that, your primary R&D needs to be fighters. Always. Bombers are always secondary.

Focus on a few models to get the best advantage. Pick one 2nd gen, 3rd gen, and 4th gen each for the IJN and IJA. That means you are researching 6 Fighters total max.

Next focus is to get NF's. Again, figure out your best model mix, and focus on them. You must have them in good supply by the time B29's arrive. HINT: if they aren't faster than the B29, they won't actually do much. Most of the models are SLOWER ... [;)]

Don't over build AC factories. Easy to do. They cost a LOT of supply, supply that you need for your LCU's. Easy to blow a couple MILLION supply on AC factories ... and you actually don't have that much.

Have a plan to stockpile HI. Mike S rule of thumb is 4M HI when you lose the DEI minimum. Also, you can never have too much ARM or VEH points either. In 45/46 (if you make it) you will go through 1000's every day of both. Each one cost 6 HI to make ... very expensive.

Finally, plan your MLR's and then make sure you have the forces (in particular the AC) to support it. EX: If I say I won't tolerate losing Okinawa, it means I need a lot of Fighters, Bombers, and Kami AC that have range 9/10 minimum. There aren't that many AC that meet those requirements. Be sure you have chosen them and they are built in appropriate quantities.

Good Luck!

[PaxMondo]

PS: Generally takes me 3 weeks to setup and then implement turn 1 for a GC game ... that's 3 weeks of work ... finding that amount of time usually takes me a couple of months ... [:D]

[Speedysteve]

Thanks Pax.

After thinking on this overnight (and I think even possibly dreaming of plane options and combinations) I'm getting clearer as to what I'll be researching now so thanks for all the advice (I'll post a full list in due course).

Now follow up questions, relating to Pax's comment about over expanding factories, is it best/feasible to put in motion (change/expand to size 30 etc) all of your R&D plants on turn 1 to what you want them to be OR do you have to wait and do this over the period of a few months due to supply etc?

Next question is regarding industry as a whole. What's the consensus on what industry to expand and by roughly how much? Also, if you do expand I assume you wait for a few months until supply is more plentiful.

I'm beginning to really like the Japanese side - a lot more planning, thought and intricacy needed!