Where's the Utah?

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

Understood however the "not losing sleep" post is insulting because it makes my question seem worthless or unimportant. I asked a simple question and anyone who would post that is just trolling. Now as far at the Utah herself goes, perhaps a little bit of code concerning her alone would have solved the problem. I understand it's more work but it makes sense if you are wanting the most historical accurate OB in the history of gaming (and really you are right, there is nothing more to do with her).... other then trivia.

I'll let crsutton speak to what he meant. I didn't take it as an insult to the ship or you. Just a comment on the immensity of the game.

To the other, I don't think you understand the game's architecture. Ships aren't unique in the OOB. They just occupy a slot in the DB. Any ship could be moved into any slot by using the editor (Or removed. Or copied.) That's what people mean when they speak of "data" in the modding sense. Players can control data through the editor. It's how ALL of the mods, from DBB to RA to the various scenarios were done and continue to be. To do what you propose would mean going into the EXE file, which only a dev can do. It would mean hard-coding to a specific DB slot # where the Utah lives in the stock scenarios and then hoping that a player didn't use the editor to stick some other ship in that slot, either on purpose or by accident. Specific ships aren't called out in the EXE so far as I know. It would be very, very dangerous.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

Understood however the "not losing sleep" post is insulting because it makes my question seem worthless or unimportant. I asked a simple question and anyone who would post that is just trolling. Now as far at the Utah herself goes, perhaps a little bit of code concerning her alone would have solved the problem. I understand it's more work but it makes sense if you are wanting the most historical accurate OB in the history of gaming (and really you are right, there is nothing more to do with her).... other then trivia.

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: STUCKER868

I find it ironic with all the extreme detail in this game (one that is even modeling individual aircraft engine production including specific engine types and the almost insane modeling of ship repair including individual mounts etc...) that a historical ship such as the USS Utah was left out of Pearl Harbor for any reason. The fact is she was a target and took valuable torpedoes that could have been used against other ships (and are being used against other ships in the model.) I would think UTAH would add something to support if anything because she was a training ship.
BTW, The UTAH still sits there to this day on the bottom, rusting away and her dead heroic crew is probably not going to lose any sleep over this either.
Your "comment" contributed nothing to this topic other then a diss.

/

There are at least two problems with including the Utah; both have been mentioned.

1) There's no need for her to be a torpedo "magnet" to keep things "fair." Whatever would be allocated to her can, in the game, instead flow to USS Pennsylvania. Those MK 666 Drydock-Jumping torpedoes are a bear.

2) The more serious issue, Don, who coded much or all of the naval routines, mentioned. If you put Utah in the OOB she is operated on by the EXE code same as any ship. Which means she can be repaired and operated with the fleet, an event for which no historical record exists. How to upgrade? What weapons to assign? If you somehow get around that and want to leave her as a hulk after the first turn --IOW, for over 1500 more turns--she sits there in Pearl taking up memory and processing in every shipyard phase. In the repair model there's no way to stop her crew from working on her, so she gradually gets fixed less major repairs. But she can't go anywhere. She just clutters up the repair reports for four-plus years.

If you try to exclude her after 12/7 and the torpedo magnet issue is gone you have to mess with the EXE, and putting a specific ship in the EXE could easily break scenarios. A ship is a data issue, not a code issue. If you code in a line that says "After 12/7, exclude the ship in Slot 5000 of the DB", and some modder puts USS Enterprise in that slot two years from now, oh the howls!

Saying no one is losing sleep over this is not an insult. I'd wager that the people on this forum as a body have nearly 100% knowledge that she's still there in Pearl as a war tomb. The comment was directed at the game. And in this case excluding her was the right call.

Thanks for the public scolding but I think that those that know me can attest that after ten years of posting on this board I don't make a habit of dissing other member, new or old. I find that sometimes the little smiley thing helps put a comment in perspective but apparently that was not the case here. Sorry for that.

[Jellicoe]

The Royal Navy did use HMS Centurion as an extemporised flak ship during one of the Malta convoys, Vigorous I think. Centurion was a demilitarised King George V class dreadnought, converted to a target ship in the 1920's. However I think that her use reflects the somewhat desperate situation that the RN was in the summer of 1942. I am not sure that the USN was ever in such desperate straits as to have ever thought about trying to do something with the Utah. They never bothered turning the Wyoming back into a BB so even less reason to suspect that they may have thought about the Utah

[Don Bowen]

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

The Royal Navy did use HMS Centurion as an extemporised flak ship during one of the Malta convoys, Vigorous I think. Centurion was a demilitarised King George V class dreadnought, converted to a target ship in the 1920's. However I think that her use reflects the somewhat desperate situation that the RN was in the summer of 1942. I am not sure that the USN was ever in such desperate straits as to have ever thought about trying to do something with the Utah. They never bothered turning the Wyoming back into a BB so even less reason to suspect that they may have thought about the Utah

I agree. Wyoming was a gunnery training ship and Utah was (pre-war) an AA training ship. Both would almost definitely continued in those duties - and AE has no feature for training ships.

[Symon]

Sorry STUCKEthingy it won't happen. We know Ohio was there, we know other boats were there. The "opening day" algorithm is what it is; ain't gonna get no more, no more, ain't gonna get no more. We chose some abstractions that work well with the "opening day" algorithm.

You don't like it, then just tweak your scen database and make it happen how you want it to.

Sick and tired of p..., p..., p..., and p..., wannabes, who think their narrow view of the universe should be imposed on everyboby else. Utah is not in the game. Deal with it. Or find something or somewhere else to whine about.

JWE

[DuckofTindalos]

And oh, how you never tire of reminding people how tired you are of them, John. Change the disc sometime, maybe?

[DuckofTindalos]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Jellicoe

The Royal Navy did use HMS Centurion as an extemporised flak ship during one of the Malta convoys, Vigorous I think. Centurion was a demilitarised King George V class dreadnought, converted to a target ship in the 1920's. However I think that her use reflects the somewhat desperate situation that the RN was in the summer of 1942. I am not sure that the USN was ever in such desperate straits as to have ever thought about trying to do something with the Utah. They never bothered turning the Wyoming back into a BB so even less reason to suspect that they may have thought about the Utah

I agree. Wyoming was a gunnery training ship and Utah was (pre-war) an AA training ship. Both would almost definitely continued in those duties - and AE has no feature for training ships.

With the result that some ships are actually a bit overpowered for their real-life usefullness. The Hosho and the Katoris come to mind.

I encourage the original poster to dive into the editor, which is one of the best editors available in strategy gaming. Modding is tons of fun.

[DuckofTindalos]

And BTW, yes... I've pissed all over people for asking questions about "missing" elements of the game myself. It got tiresome for me.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: Terminus
And oh, how you never tire of reminding people how tired you are of them, John. Change the disc sometime, maybe?

I do agree. The years go on and the waves still lap, lap, lap on the shore. Glad to see you ain't tired. Will turn over all responses in this forum to you. Thanks. Ciao. JWE

[wdolson]

Please chill dudes. We're just having a discussion here. If you feel your blood pressure rising, I suggest quit reading this thread.

The USN had several demilitarized BBs. The Wyoming and Utah have been mentioned. The USN also modified the Kearsarge to be a crane ship. She was on the East Coast most of the war, but spent some time in San Francisco.

Another old BB was the USS Oregon which was a museum ship in Portland, OR at the beginning of the war. The US was concerned there would be a steel shortage so in early 42 the Oregon was taken back by the Navy and they began scrapping her. When it became apparent there wasn't going to be a steel shortage, scrapping the Oregon was stopped and she was turned into a barge. She was used for supply storage after Guam was taken back and was moored there. In a typhoon she broke free and floated off into the Pacific. She was found several weeks later drifting on the high seas. She was towed back to Guam and sunk at the end of the war off Guam. An ignoble end to a very historic ship. Among many historians in Oregon it's still a sore point.

There were also a number of other demilitarized vessels used for yard support and other scut work during the war. Essentially including them is a level of detail the game just can't support. They are mostly included in naval support at a base.

Bill

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Please chill dudes. We're just having a discussion here. If you feel your blood pressure rising, I suggest quit reading this thread.

The USN had several demilitarized BBs. The Wyoming and Utah have been mentioned. The USN also modified the Kearsarge to be a crane ship. She was on the East Coast most of the war, but spent some time in San Francisco.

Another old BB was the USS Oregon which was a museum ship in Portland, OR at the beginning of the war. The US was concerned there would be a steel shortage so in early 42 the Oregon was taken back by the Navy and they began scrapping her. When it became apparent there wasn't going to be a steel shortage, scrapping the Oregon was stopped and she was turned into a barge. She was used for supply storage after Guam was taken back and was moored there. In a typhoon she broke free and floated off into the Pacific. She was found several weeks later drifting on the high seas. She was towed back to Guam and sunk at the end of the war off Guam. An ignoble end to a very historic ship. Among many historians in Oregon it's still a sore point.

There were also a number of other demilitarized vessels used for yard support and other scut work during the war. Essentially including them is a level of detail the game just can't support. They are mostly included in naval support at a base.

Bill

I didn't know this story. I know Wiki is a bad source, but it says the break-away was in 1948, the barge portion was recovered, but eventually scrapped in Japan at Kawasaki. It says the funnels and a mast were preserved in CONUS, but the funnels are in storage. The mast has a 100-year time capsule buried in front of it, to be opened in 2076.

[wdolson]

I guess I misremembered some details. I have seen the mast, it's in a park in Portland. I didn't know the funnels are still around.

Bill

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Please chill dudes. We're just having a discussion here. If you feel your blood pressure rising, I suggest quit reading this thread.

The USN had several demilitarized BBs. The Wyoming and Utah have been mentioned. The USN also modified the Kearsarge to be a crane ship. She was on the East Coast most of the war, but spent some time in San Francisco.

Another old BB was the USS Oregon which was a museum ship in Portland, OR at the beginning of the war. The US was concerned there would be a steel shortage so in early 42 the Oregon was taken back by the Navy and they began scrapping her. When it became apparent there wasn't going to be a steel shortage, scrapping the Oregon was stopped and she was turned into a barge. She was used for supply storage after Guam was taken back and was moored there. In a typhoon she broke free and floated off into the Pacific. She was found several weeks later drifting on the high seas. She was towed back to Guam and sunk at the end of the war off Guam. An ignoble end to a very historic ship. Among many historians in Oregon it's still a sore point.

There were also a number of other demilitarized vessels used for yard support and other scut work during the war. Essentially including them is a level of detail the game just can't support. They are mostly included in naval support at a base.

Bill

Sigh. I just found out this story too when I was back in Portland with family over Christmas. I grew up looking at that mast every day as my bus came in over the Morrison bridge on he way to school. I loved it. It's so mysterious, just that one piece left standing lookout there.

Now I would have been excited beyond belief to have seen the entire ship. So sad it isn't left there as a monument. My dad remembered it from when he was a kid.

Love that the ship made it all of the way to Guam and was a part of the war. Then went walkabout! [:D] Such an odd ending.

Found some interesting pics.

[wdolson]

What's striking is how small those turn of the century battlewagons were. I have a 1/225 scale model of the Oregon and it's dwarfed by the 1/200 scale Arizona. A Fletcher class DD was 376 feet and an Indiana class BB was only 351 feet! Though the early BB had close to twice the beam and a deeper draft.

Bill

[Jellicoe]

Yes that's very true. I was really surprised at how small the Mikasa was when I visited her some years back, she didn't feel much bigger than Warrior or Victory in many ways