Strategy 101 resources wanted

Norm Koger's The Operational Art of War III is the next game in the award-winning Operational Art of War game series. TOAW3 is updated and enhanced version of the TOAW: Century of Warfare game series. TOAW3 is a turn based game covering operational warfare from 1850-2015. Game scale is from 2.5km to 50km and half day to full week turns. TOAW3 scenarios have been designed by over 70 designers and included over 130 scenarios. TOAW3 comes complete with a full game editor.

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ralphtricky
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RE: AI web resources and TOAW AI in large scenarios.

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: governato
Just a few resources I stumbled upon

...

So far the weakest parts of the TOAW AI are:

a) the ability to keep a continuous front. I think it is partially caused by me not being good at programming the AI...but also from the fact that different formations act independently of each other.

b) the AI moves units all the time, and units rarely stop to keep decent supply/readiness levels. Players do the same and I think that is partially due to a lack of penalties for low supply.
Thanks for the links.

I've also been following the 'At the Gates' game and have access to the design documents (part of Kickstarter) which also has some ideas.

On the first one, that's part of why I need advice on the strategy layer. I don't know enough about when Elmer should try to do a breakthrough and encircle some units (without being cut off) and when to head for the victory hexes and when to do something else. If I don't know those things, it becomes pretty hard to advise ELmer.[:(] There are all kinds of resources on small unit tactics, but very little on strategy.

On the second one, Elmer does that because the players do ;) 3.5 adds an 'OverExtended' supply level if defined by the scenario designer. There is code to rest units when the formation supply levels go below 25%, I'll need to enhance that if the overextended supply levels are in place. I've tried to make Elmer dance less, but I know that I can do more. Some of the moves can definitely be eliminated, part of the problem is that he doesn't have an overall plan.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: Telumar
Another idea that i have is to expand on the .ai file and strategic bias system in doing something like "AI doctrine" that can be switched during the scenario (by events). The AI doctrine could contain settings like agressiveness, air settings (combat support vs interdiction), emphasize on destroying enemy forces or capturing objectives. Starve cut off enemies or destroy asap. Stubborn defense or elastic defense. Acceptable Loss ratios. etc.
Some of those are easy.
Aggressiveness is captured already, I think.
Combat support vs interdiction is possible, right now, it's random.
Destroying forces or capturing objectives. I'm not sure how to do that one.
Starve cutoff units or destroy should be possible.
Stubborn defense or elastic is simple, I think.
Acceptable loss ratios - what do you do when they are exceeded? withdraw the formation?

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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: Lobster

After reading Rhinobones post #16 suggestion: Keep in mind humans (some rookies at programming) will be programming this stuff for their scenarios and it can be very easy to make spaghetti. So some kind of structured architecture would be desirable. The current editor is a good spaghetti maker. But he has some good points.
I think part of the problem is that there are two different things that the editor is trying to do. One is the scenario design and editing. The other is the AI design.

Even though they may use events under the hood, there is no reason that you might not be able to edit an 'objective' and bring up a list of things that can happen when it's won/lost, including triggering an event for more complex things.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by Telumar »

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
ORIGINAL: Telumar
Another idea that i have is to expand on the .ai file and strategic bias system in doing something like "AI doctrine" that can be switched during the scenario (by events). The AI doctrine could contain settings like agressiveness, air settings (combat support vs interdiction), emphasize on destroying enemy forces or capturing objectives. Starve cut off enemies or destroy asap. Stubborn defense or elastic defense. Acceptable Loss ratios. etc.
Some of those are easy.
Aggressiveness is captured already, I think.
Combat support vs interdiction is possible, right now, it's random.
Destroying forces or capturing objectives. I'm not sure how to do that one.
Starve cutoff units or destroy should be possible.
Stubborn defense or elastic is simple, I think.
Acceptable loss ratios - what do you do when they are exceeded? withdraw the formation?


Yes, aggressiveness is captured by the Strategic Bias.

Combat support vs interdiction - get me right, i don't mean either this or that, i mean an emphasize on the one without omitting the other.
Acceptable loss ratios - what do you do when they are exceeded? withdraw the formation?

You know this is difficult and no simple answer can be given. Yes, withdraw is an option, but so is exchanging a formation by another or if on the attack cancelling the offensive etc. Things that i (and others) do are looking at own losses, i.e. in infantry, and compare it to the replacements. Something that good players in longer campaigns do look at (i.e. FitE). But as said, in longer camapigns. In a 15 turn game this is not as significant as in 200+ turns scenario.

The longer i think about it, the less i like my idea about the doctrine screen. A good AI probably wouldn't need it. And most is so situation dependent that it's impossible to catch all with something as generalized as a global AI doctrine.

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

On the first one, that's part of why I need advice on the strategy layer. I don't know enough about when Elmer should try to do a breakthrough and encircle some units (without being cut off) and when to head for the victory hexes and when to do something else. If I don't know those things, it becomes pretty hard to advise ELmer. There are all kinds of resources on small unit tactics, but very little on strategy.

So, let's get that clear. You are looking for player advice on how and why they do this and that? Tactics, operational evaluations etc. No nerdy tech stuff, just nerdy armchair general stuff? If so, have you looked in the AAR section? Though i doubt that there is such an AAR with a player going into 'deep musing'.. but one never knows. There has been a TOAW workshop at gamesquad.com when TOAW3 came out which might be worth a look, i think the old threads should still be there in the AAR section.
Maybe it would be better if you asked a specific question, maybe even present a certain situation and simply ask what and how to do and what and why not etc. You'll get as much opinions as players answering, but it wouldn't hurt. The other thing that would be even better is play, play and play, but that would eat up your precious programming time...[:'(]
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by governato »

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick


On the first one, that's part of why I need advice on the strategy layer. I don't know enough about when Elmer should try to do a breakthrough and encircle some units (without being cut off) and when to head for the victory hexes and when to do something else. If I don't know those things, it becomes pretty hard to advise ELmer. There are all kinds of resources on small unit tactics, but very little on strategy.
ORIGINAL: Telumar
So, let's get that clear. You are looking for player advice on how and why they do this and that? Tactics, operational evaluations etc. No nerdy tech stuff, just nerdy armchair general stuff? If so, have you looked in the AAR section?
.


I like the idea of general settings that drive the global strategy of the AI, say:

- propensity of getting encirclements vs frontal attacks (German vs Red Army doctrine)
- effort to keep a continuous front (large scale scenarios vs small scale or WWII vs Napoleonic era)

That would enable the scenario designer to set the general behaviour of the AI in a way that is consistent with the scale of the scenario and the C&C style of the forces involved. The blessing/curse of TOAW is that it is much broader in scope than other good PC games (as War in the East or Command Ops), that is quite a challenge. So I think some way of helping the PO prioritize depending on the scenario will be absolutely necessary.

Regarding Telumar's point of reading material for real forces (rather than discussion of AIs behaviour) here is a link to a Red Army doctrine paper that discusses
some practical applications of strategic doctrine.

As an intermediate step, I would *love* to see the game develop further what has been introduced in v3.4: the PO takes strategic directions from the player through a series of intermediate objectives (that can be modified during the game) but then the PO does all the tactical moves for each formation. This is what 'Command Ops' does perfectly, but at scales below the operational level of TOAW.

I think this approach, if improved, 'd make some monster scenarios a lot more fun and playable (and realistic).


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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: governato
....it'd make some monster scenarios a lot more fun and playable (and realistic).
I like this thought. Part of the problem w/ monster scenarios is that they are terrifically hard to playtest properly.
FITE has a very large unit count for both sides and there's like 400+ turns to play. Very few players have
time resources to spend on such a project. So Steve Sill has developed a beautiful scenario called
Sicily to Brenner Pass that has a medium unit count and plenty of turns but the turns pass quickly. It's actually
fun to play agan. And he has another one called D-Day to the Elbe that also is a monster that plays quickly
and is fun to play. This man is a gold mine I tell you. A national treasure. I've played both and I like both of them
and thought I'd say so .
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by sPzAbt653 »

Thanks very much ... it is the combined effort of many that makes it all possible, though.

I am dedicated to making solitaire scenarios that hopefully are worth playing. Its difficult because there is no 'PO Manual', so its all trial and error. Ralph helps out immensly, for example by increasing the PO Tracks from 3 to 5. I have an opinion that the addition of more tracks, used in conjunction with the Variable Value, could result in a decent PO on a semi-strategic level. Rick and I had some success with this in Directive 21.

But some of Elmers' basics lack, and I think this might create difficulties in getting a decent Strategic Elmer. I have no programming education so I can't speak intelligently on AI theory, but if everything that a human player sees can be transformed into math, I don't see why a PO can't reach a reasonable conclusion to situations. A human player can look at the front line and see where the weakness is, then can make adjustments. Overall this decision is based on mathmatical calculations of unit strengths. A program ought to be able to make the same calculations and arrive at reasonable conclusions, I would think. But Elmer often likes to overstack and not protect unit flanks. This degrades many scenarios into an excersise of denying supply to the PO in order to reduce its units, as opposed to being an excersise in strategy and tactics.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by Curtis Lemay »

I still hold a scoffer position on all this. I fear that even if everything so far proposed were implemented and then actually used by scenario designers we would still have a PO that would barely suffice as a practice opponent. The PO, so far, has more or less been a black hole down which limitless code can be pored without any real improvement. And this stuff, altogether, would be a huge amount of coding effort.

The cost of pursuing the more elaborate of these will be in fewer actual game features. We don't have infinite coding time. That means that we have to budget what we want. In general, I would rather see more game features. We could afford a few PO ideas with the highest cost/benefit ratios, though, But we have to think in those terms.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by Lobster »

I think Ralph is on the right track. Judging by the Opponents Wanted section it would appear most people play against the PO, not against human opponents. And if this is indeed true then wouldn't a better PO be important? All the great features in the world would not make a difference if there is no one to play the game because it lacks a decent non human opponent. On the other hand, if Elmer could be made into a decent opponent then the replay value of the game would be a huge selling point. Playing against a brain dead Elmer is not fun after the first few times.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: Lobster
I think Ralph is on the right track. Judging by the Opponents Wanted section it would appear most people play against the PO, not against human opponents. And if this is indeed true then wouldn't a better PO be important? All the great features in the world would not make a difference if there is no one to play the game because it lacks a decent non human opponent. On the other hand, if Elmer could be made into a decent opponent then the replay value of the game would be a huge selling point. Playing against a brain dead Elmer is not fun after the first few times.
Matrix does have a PBEM system that I want to add support for that may help some with that. Bob is partially right in that an expert level AI would be incredibly expensive to build, but I think that getting an AI that is better than the current one is definitely possible, and worth doing for a number of reasons. I don't expect it to be an expert, just not as stupid, have a more consistent plan, and sometimes doing clever things.[:D]
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
But some of Elmers' basics lack, and I think this might create difficulties in getting a decent Strategic Elmer. I have no programming education so I can't speak intelligently on AI theory, but if everything that a human player sees can be transformed into math, I don't see why a PO can't reach a reasonable conclusion to situations. A human player can look at the front line and see where the weakness is, then can make adjustments. Overall this decision is based on mathmatical calculations of unit strengths. A program ought to be able to make the same calculations and arrive at reasonable conclusions, I would think. But Elmer often likes to overstack and not protect unit flanks. This degrades many scenarios into an excersise of denying supply to the PO in order to reduce its units, as opposed to being an excersise in strategy and tactics.
It can, there is a thing called 'Influence maps' that lets you do analysis like that, but those are really more at the strategic level and not just the formation, which is part of where Elmer lacks.

He should not be overstacking, I'll look at that and the flanking. Part of that is that he can be much less cautious depending on the formation stance.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by sPzAbt653 »

He should not be overstacking, I'll look at that and the flanking. Part of that is that he can be much less cautious depending on the formation stance.

Part of it is also the design of a scenario. Formation size, unit size and objective locations can all be changed by the designer in order to gain better results. Its the time it takes to do these things that seems to be a big detriment to designers, along with the apprehension of doing something they haven't done before.

Maybe we should pick a scenario to use as a tester which might also serve as an instructor. I might be able to do an AAR type thread to illustrate. This might help designers become familiar with PO aspects, and it might help Ralph see real world examples.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by governato »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
He should not be overstacking, I'll look at that and the flanking. Part of that is that he can be much less cautious depending on the formation stance.

Part of it is also the design of a scenario. Formation size, unit size and objective locations can all be changed by the designer in order to gain better results. Its the time it takes to do these things that seems to be a big detriment to designers, along with the apprehension of doing something they haven't done before.

Maybe we should pick a scenario to use as a tester which might also serve as an instructor. I might be able to do an AAR type thread to illustrate. This might help designers become familiar with PO aspects, and it might help Ralph see real world examples.

I think that is an excellent idea, and perhaps it could be used as a 'benchmark' to test new PO features?
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
He should not be overstacking, I'll look at that and the flanking. Part of that is that he can be much less cautious depending on the formation stance.

Part of it is also the design of a scenario. Formation size, unit size and objective locations can all be changed by the designer in order to gain better results. Its the time it takes to do these things that seems to be a big detriment to designers, along with the apprehension of doing something they haven't done before.

Maybe we should pick a scenario to use as a tester which might also serve as an instructor. I might be able to do an AAR type thread to illustrate. This might help designers become familiar with PO aspects, and it might help Ralph see real world examples.
That would help. It would also let me give feedback about WHY Elmer does some of the stupid things he does. Not that I'm admitting that he does anything stupid of course[:'(]
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by golden delicious »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The PO, so far, has more or less been a black hole down which limitless code can be pored without any real improvement.

The PO has got better- thought it's still not great. However...
The cost of pursuing the more elaborate of these will be in fewer actual game features. We don't have infinite coding time.

...nevertheless I agree. The PO is not a priority for me in terms of Ralph's time.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by governato »

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The PO, so far, has more or less been a black hole down which limitless code can be pored without any real improvement.

The PO has got better- thought it's still not great. However...
The cost of pursuing the more elaborate of these will be in fewer actual game features. We don't have infinite coding time.

...nevertheless I agree. The PO is not a priority for me in terms of Ralph's time.


I respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleagues [:)]. I suspect that most people play wargames against the PO (this was mentioned several times by the developers on the WITE forum). A better PO would certainly help selling the game, which in turn would support further developments for the game engine. Win win.
For scenario developers: having a better PO to test the event chain or the late stages of a scenario without having to play it over and over again is pretty invaluable, eventually producing better scenarios, which again creates a positive cycle. I trust the developers to divide their finite resources in the most efficient way!

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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by Falcon1 »

I second that and even take it a step further. I would wager that the vast majority of wargamers never play online or by email. If it weren't for solitaire players, no war games would ever be developed. Many people feel otherwise only because online players are always over-represented on internet forums.
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by Telumar »

ORIGINAL: governato

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The PO, so far, has more or less been a black hole down which limitless code can be pored without any real improvement.

The PO has got better- thought it's still not great. However...
The cost of pursuing the more elaborate of these will be in fewer actual game features. We don't have infinite coding time.

...nevertheless I agree. The PO is not a priority for me in terms of Ralph's time.


I respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleagues [:)]. I suspect that most people play wargames against the PO (this was mentioned several times by the developers on the WITE forum). A better PO would certainly help selling the game, which in turn would support further developments for the game engine. Win win.
For scenario developers: having a better PO to test the event chain or the late stages of a scenario without having to play it over and over again is pretty invaluable, eventually producing better scenarios, which again creates a positive cycle. I trust the developers to divide their finite resources in the most efficient way!


I'm absolutely with Governato. +1
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by Curtis Lemay »

ORIGINAL: governato
ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The PO, so far, has more or less been a black hole down which limitless code can be pored without any real improvement.


I respectfully disagree with my esteemed colleagues [:)]. I suspect that most people play wargames against the PO (this was mentioned several times by the developers on the WITE forum). A better PO would certainly help selling the game, which in turn would support further developments for the game engine. Win win.
For scenario developers: having a better PO to test the event chain or the late stages of a scenario without having to play it over and over again is pretty invaluable, eventually producing better scenarios, which again creates a positive cycle. I trust the developers to divide their finite resources in the most efficient way!

I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying that an improved PO wouldn't be a good thing. I was saying that it is close to a pipe dream. It would be a really good thing to win the State Lottery. But should I be blowing my paycheck on State Lottery tickets? What if we made all these improvements to the PO and it turned out not to be much better than it is now? Or what if few if any designers used the new improvements? (Check how many scenarios have been designed without a single track on either side programmed).
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RE: Strategy 101 resources wanted

Post by ralphtricky »

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
I think you missed my point. I wasn't saying that an improved PO wouldn't be a good thing. I was saying that it is close to a pipe dream. It would be a really good thing to win the State Lottery. But should I be blowing my paycheck on State Lottery tickets? What if we made all these improvements to the PO and it turned out not to be much better than it is now? Or what if few if any designers used the new improvements? (Check how many scenarios have been designed without a single track on either side programmed).
Let me try to set expectations.

Don't expect Elmer to be able to suddenly turn a flank, devastate your rear lines, surround the remaining units then withdraw gracefully from your reinforcements this release. I do want to spend as much time as I can in doing other things.

A great AI will take at least 1-2 years of development. The formation AI is a start. The current AI is a bit overly ambitious in some ways in how it tries to guess the stance it should be in which may make things worse, and definitely more confusing. I like the idea of a master panel as a step that would be simple to implement and provide value. Unit flanking and overstacking should be simple. Supply and rotation can be improved. I may try to do something like see where the formations are on their objectives compared to adjacent formations and do something based on that.

I'll start on the strategic AI, but it's got to be juggled with other tasks. I should be able to start but I don't expect to finish it this year.

If I can get the UI and functionality where I want them, I might consider an enhanced solo mode or something where the PBEM opponent would be responsible only for the AI settings. That isn't anything I've put any thought into, but it might make for interesting gameplay where some judges administer solo games.

Once I figure out how much time everything is going to take I'll be able to make plans.
Ralph Trickey
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