Japanese shipborne flak

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LoBaron
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Theages

ORIGINAL: LoBaron
On attack run the planes drop to weapon release alt (200ft for TB, 1-4k for DB, level bombers obviously stay at the set alt) and in case the alt is lower than the weapons´ max ceiling can also be engaged by the shorter range point defense weapons. But in this phase only the AA weapons of the ship under direct attack fire at the planes.

CLAA are said to contribute to flak defense for attacked ships also "on attack run" phase.

This might have been the intention once but to my best knowledge CLAA designation has no effect on combat whatsoever. In this regard it acts exactly like a CL.

IIRC the different designation only supports the AI in TF composition.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by Czert »

ORIGINAL: crsutton

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Well, game model and reality differs :). In reality most planes were shot down by 40/30/25/20/13mm guns than by dp big calibers. And as no propably in game only few hits (1-3) from 20mm+ were manytimes enought to shot down most planes, except 4e heavy bombers (for these were 30mm+ :) ).
And in theory these short legs (25mm) could defend another ship, but that will need that ship will be close enough to recive it, and im not completly sure if ships in aa defence formation were close enought that thier firing circles were overlaping another ship, or were just overlaping with some end before geting to close to another ship to prevent acidental friendly hits.


I would like to know your sources on this? I caution you about dumping lesser caliber guns into the same group with the excellent 40mm gun, which may have been the best all around AA gun produced in the war. Plus, the introduction of the Allied proximity fuse and radar fire control undoubtedly changed the kill rate for larger guns as the war progressed. (At least for the Allies) So, you may be too general in your comment, not only about the types of light AA guns but also the nationality and time frame. I myself am no authority on this.

One thing I have learned from a post action report that someone posted her years ago is that the ship with the best chance to shoot down an attacking aircraft is the ship being attacked. All other ships no matter how equipped are firing at a greater range and having to deal with deflection. I doubt that the game system reflects this but who knows...[;)]

My sources are well, history of figters :). I remeber that germans started to fit 30mm guns to show down with just 1-2 hits (i think with he round, mayby it was HEI) any 4e bomber over germany, while for 20mm it was noted it needed around 20 hits to shot him down. 13mm and less was seemed not efective against 4e late war bombers, but still good enough to shot down figters.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: czert2
ORIGINAL: crsutton
ORIGINAL: czert2

Well, game model and reality differs :). In reality most planes were shot down by 40/30/25/20/13mm guns than by dp big calibers. And as no propably in game only few hits (1-3) from 20mm+ were manytimes enought to shot down most planes, except 4e heavy bombers (for these were 30mm+ :) ).
And in theory these short legs (25mm) could defend another ship, but that will need that ship will be close enough to recive it, and im not completly sure if ships in aa defence formation were close enought that thier firing circles were overlaping another ship, or were just overlaping with some end before geting to close to another ship to prevent acidental friendly hits.


I would like to know your sources on this? I caution you about dumping lesser caliber guns into the same group with the excellent 40mm gun, which may have been the best all around AA gun produced in the war. Plus, the introduction of the Allied proximity fuse and radar fire control undoubtedly changed the kill rate for larger guns as the war progressed. (At least for the Allies) So, you may be too general in your comment, not only about the types of light AA guns but also the nationality and time frame. I myself am no authority on this.

One thing I have learned from a post action report that someone posted her years ago is that the ship with the best chance to shoot down an attacking aircraft is the ship being attacked. All other ships no matter how equipped are firing at a greater range and having to deal with deflection. I doubt that the game system reflects this but who knows...[;)]

My sources are well, history of figters :). I remeber that germans started to fit 30mm guns to show down with just 1-2 hits (i think with he round, mayby it was HEI) any 4e bomber over germany, while for 20mm it was noted it needed around 20 hits to shot him down. 13mm and less was seemed not efective against 4e late war bombers, but still good enough to shot down figters.
That is not relevant information. Fighters can fly up to the aircraft that they shoot at. Ships can't.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by msieving1 »

ORIGINAL: czert2


1. yes, i know that oerlikons were japanese killers, that why i stated that short/medium range wepons were doom of planes, and long range - dp - didnt get much scores. I have no numbers, but i base it on knowlege from redings and mathematick - after all the more lead you pump to air, the bigger chance it willl hit somethind, and 40mm bofors have much nicer rof thah 100mm+ :).
But in this game dp got 3 chances to fire, while AAA basicaly only one. With results that dp are biger plane killers (at least for japanese).

2. true, my fault, my statement was about naval attacks (since op question), you dont use much ships in stategick area defence right :).
and as sidenote - during raids againts germany by "mighty 8" cca 1/4 of loses were due to flak, rest due to fighters + ops. And on "funny side" price of ammo consumed to show down one 4e bomber was nearing price of fighter plane (but this statement ignores many other planes damaged or crashed due to damage, as jerrys didnt have tools to count this).

3. im little confused here, so you are confriming that ships were outside or inside range of own AAA with chance of friendly fire.

You can find numbers for US experience at http://www.history.navy.mil/library/onl ... y_wwii.htm The USN credited 5" guns with 30% of kills, 40mm with 33%, and 20mm with 28%, and 3", 1.1", and 0.5" for the rest. Of course, there were a lot more 40mm and 20mm guns in the fleet than 5", so the fact that they were about even in the number of kills points to the 5" (particularly with the VT fuse) being more effective.

0.5" were fairly useless, and were replaced by 20mm as quickly as possible. 20mm made plenty of kills, but mostly after the target had released its ordnance. The 40mm was about the smallest gun that was effective at stopping an attack. Unfortunately for the Japanese, they had nothing similar. The Japanese 5" and 100mm were good heavy AA guns, and the 25mm was an adequate light gun, but the lack of a suitable medium AA gun was a serious flaw in the Japanese arsenal.



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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by LoBaron »

Thanks for the link msieving1 (reccommend you remove the '.' from the end though [;)] )

Seems like a plausable kill ratio for the USN. Does anybody have similar statistics about USAAF losses?
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by Czert »

ORIGINAL: witpqs
ORIGINAL: czert2
ORIGINAL: crsutton




I would like to know your sources on this? I caution you about dumping lesser caliber guns into the same group with the excellent 40mm gun, which may have been the best all around AA gun produced in the war. Plus, the introduction of the Allied proximity fuse and radar fire control undoubtedly changed the kill rate for larger guns as the war progressed. (At least for the Allies) So, you may be too general in your comment, not only about the types of light AA guns but also the nationality and time frame. I myself am no authority on this.

One thing I have learned from a post action report that someone posted her years ago is that the ship with the best chance to shoot down an attacking aircraft is the ship being attacked. All other ships no matter how equipped are firing at a greater range and having to deal with deflection. I doubt that the game system reflects this but who knows...[;)]

My sources are well, history of figters :). I remeber that germans started to fit 30mm guns to show down with just 1-2 hits (i think with he round, mayby it was HEI) any 4e bomber over germany, while for 20mm it was noted it needed around 20 hits to shot him down. 13mm and less was seemed not efective against 4e late war bombers, but still good enough to shot down figters.
That is not relevant information. Fighters can fly up to the aircraft that they shoot at. Ships can't.

well, effect of 30mm HEI is same if shot by figter or ship :) And to be more interesing, some planes have armor optimised against figters, having this bootoms much ligter armored making them more vulneable to aaa fire, while others were more optimized against aaa fire than figher and some were simply flying armored box unable to be shot down at all (il2m sturmovik).
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

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ORIGINAL: czert2

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: czert2

Well, game model and reality differs :). In reality most planes were shot down by 40/30/25/20/13mm guns than by dp big calibers. And as no propably in game only few hits (1-3) from 20mm+ were manytimes enought to shot down most planes, except 4e heavy bombers (for these were 30mm+ :) ).
And in theory these short legs (25mm) could defend another ship, but that will need that ship will be close enough to recive it, and im not completly sure if ships in aa defence formation were close enought that thier firing circles were overlaping another ship, or were just overlaping with some end before geting to close to another ship to prevent acidental friendly hits.


I would like to know your sources on this? I caution you about dumping lesser caliber guns into the same group with the excellent 40mm gun, which may have been the best all around AA gun produced in the war. Plus, the introduction of the Allied proximity fuse and radar fire control undoubtedly changed the kill rate for larger guns as the war progressed. (At least for the Allies) So, you may be too general in your comment, not only about the types of light AA guns but also the nationality and time frame. I myself am no authority on this.

One thing I have learned from a post action report that someone posted her years ago is that the ship with the best chance to shoot down an attacking aircraft is the ship being attacked. All other ships no matter how equipped are firing at a greater range and having to deal with deflection. I doubt that the game system reflects this but who knows...[;)]

My sources are well, history of figters :). I remeber that germans started to fit 30mm guns to show down with just 1-2 hits (i think with he round, mayby it was HEI) any 4e bomber over germany, while for 20mm it was noted it needed around 20 hits to shot him down. 13mm and less was seemed not efective against 4e late war bombers, but still good enough to shot down figters.

Ah sorry, I thought you were just referencing flak combat and not all fighter and flak combat as well. But the effect of the a 30mm gun fired by a ship vs a fighter is different in that the ranges would be vastly different. The 30mm gun on a fighter was deadly effective vs bombers (not so vs other fighters) but in s ship to air combat would just like other lighter caliber guns and be engaging at the extremes of its range. Due to the nature of the combat I would expect a vastly different hit rate. Of course a 30 mm is a 30 mm once it hits and then it can be very effective. But neither side used the a 30mm flak gun in the Pacific and the difference between the Japanese 25 mm and the Allied 40 mm is vast.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

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So basically, the best way to wear down a Japanese TF with the DP guns, would be to fly several naval attacks by most durable bombers i.e B-17s and bomb the TF from 10,000 feet prior to a dive-bomber/torpedo attack. Just make the Japs waste their ammo on the bait and let the follow-up strike face the ineffective 25mm/13mm flak.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by Jorge_Stanbury »

ORIGINAL: Yaab

So basically, the best way to wear down a Japanese TF with the DP guns, would be to fly several naval attacks by most durable bombers i.e B-17s and bomb the TF from 10,000 feet prior to a dive-bomber/torpedo attack. Just make the Japs waste their ammo on the bait and let the follow-up strike face the ineffective 25mm/13mm flak.

problem is you don't control who goes 1st. B-17s might arrive last.

And if I am sustaining several naval attacks ... I might get cold feet and go home. In other words, I know level bombers are inefective, and you are not the AI, so, if you are sending level bombers, it means I am getting into a trap
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

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Ok, I tested my theory in the Guadalcanal scenario. I formed a bait TF composed of CA Chokai and E Yunagi ,having in total 11 DP plus several 25mm guns, and provoked the Allied CV TF to attack me. I added a small LRCAP group over my TF, but the group never broke through the escorts in the following air raids.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Vella Lavella at 109,133

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 19 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 27
SBD-3 Dauntless x 13
TBF-1 Avenger x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai
E Yunagi

Aircraft Attacking:
10 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
12 x TBF-1 Avenger launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 22in Mk 13 Torpedo
3 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Vella Lavella at 109,133

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid spotted at 20 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5

Allied aircraft
F4F-4 Wildcat x 33
SBD-3 Dauntless x 26

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-4 Wildcat: 1 destroyed
SBD-3 Dauntless: 1 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
5 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
7 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 4000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb
4 x SBD-3 Dauntless releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 1000 lb SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead

So I successfully fended off 25 and 26 bombers without a single bomb hit on my ships.

Now, I counted all DP and AA gun mounts on both ships. CA Chokai has 10 mounts, E Yunagi has 14 mounts. I do not know how the game code handles this, but those attacks probably ment the 25-26 aircraft were not enough to swamp my AA defences.In the ideal setup each such aircraft would face one dedicated AA mount firing at it.

Anyway, DP ammo is dangerously low on both ships after the two attacks.

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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by LoBaron »

ORIGINAL: Yaab
So I successfully fended off 25 and 26 bombers without a single bomb hit on my ships.

Now, I counted all DP and AA gun mounts on both ships. CA Chokai has 10 mounts, E Yunagi has 14 mounts. I do not know how the game code handles this, but those attacks probably ment the 25-26 aircraft were not enough to swamp my AA defences.In the ideal setup each such aircraft would face one dedicated AA mount firing at it.

Just a hint: If you attempt to draw conclusions from analysing a complex scenario which features a vary large number of variables, but in the process deliberately and subjectively limit the number of variables you pay attention to, your conclusions will be...how should I say...crap.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by Yaab »

LoBaron, I would love to draw sound conclusions, but my knowledge of the game mechanics is limited.

I saw 25 bombers dropping their bombs/torpedoes among lots of flak bursts from my TF. The bombs were released because you could see several water splashes from misses.

What I DON'T KNOW is if 25 bombers attack one ship (as with the second combat report), do they perform their attack simultaneously or are their broken down into smaller packets, which wait for their turn for the attack?

If it is the latter, and at one time only i.e. four dive-bombers attack CA Chokai, then the CA can concentrate all her AA fire on those four bombers provided the guns are not limited in their targeting by Right Side/Left Side placement.

That leads us to a question what is the direction from which the dive-bombers attack a ship. Combat animation only gives you direction information when a torpedo bomber attacks. A dive-bomber has no direction, it always attacks a ship from overhead(?), thus it may face the AA from all the AA guns on the ship.

These things I don't know for sure, that is why I am asking about them.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by LoBaron »

You do not need to be an expert on game mechanics to make assumptions on whether the data you observe is self consistent and sufficient.

My impression is that you attempt to estimate the # of ships/AA mounts that enable you to build, how you call it, an AA TF and use it as trap(bait?) against naval strikes. To draw conclusions what number is sufficient for survival as well as effect, you seem to tie the number of AA mounts to the number of attacking aircraft, and from there attempt to deduce how many ships you need to be successful without generating hits on your ships.

So basically you observe following variables:
- # of AA guns/# of ships
- # of attacking a/c

and then establish a causal relation of those numbers to the number of hits on your ships (and maybe to the a/c shot down).

But what you ignore is that number of hits is the result of many more causal relationships. Just to name a few, theres many more):

- # of AA guns/# of ships
- # of attacking a/c
- TF DL/MDL
- a/c pilot skill
- initial a/c pilot fatigue
- strike distance (also affecting fatigue)
- squadron commander skill
- TF leader skill
- ship attributes (IIRC mvr&speed and maybe displacement)
- ship commander skill
- crew exp
- attacking a/c type
- attcking a/c loadout
- weather

If you are only observing part of those variables, any observation you make is worthless.

I am aware that one cannot know all variables impacting a specific combat situation except with access to the code (I would never claim I do), but even without that knowledge you can set a framework that minimizes the impact of variables you do not know or want to rule out as a factor. What you need to do is keep the test setup as static as possible, and only change those variables you want to observe. But depending on the variables you do not know, and depending on th ecomplexity of the situation you want to observe, you have to make several dozens of repetitions to get statistically significant data.

But even then, you only have a rough baseline for a very specific set of variables, so tests would not support you in predicting results reliably if the variables significantly diverge from your sandbox setup. And that such variation will happen in a campaign is pretty much a given.

What I DON'T KNOW is if 25 bombers attack one ship (as with the second combat report), do they perform their attack simultaneously or are their broken down into smaller packets, which wait for their turn for the attack?

In most instances they are broken down into smaller packets and attack sequentially. You can see the composition of the packets in the combat animations.
If it is the latter, and at one time only i.e. four dive-bombers attack CA Chokai, then the CA can concentrate all her AA fire on those four bombers provided the guns are not limited in their targeting by Right Side/Left Side placement.

No, because even in the above described sequential attack you will notice a target saturation effect. The more a/c attack, the less concentrated is the AA.
That leads us to a question what is the direction from which the dive-bombers attack a ship. Combat animation only gives you direction information when a torpedo bomber attacks. A dive-bomber has no direction, it always attacks a ship from overhead(?), thus it may face the AA from all the AA guns on the ship.

Please take this with a grain of salt as I have not seen the code. My personal assumption is all attacks face one or more sides of a ship (Front/Rear/Right Side/Left Side/All), depending on a dice roll. The details of this have never been revealed.


You raise good, valid, and interesting questions, but please be aware that even if answered they will not make you tests, as you currently seem to set them up, more conclusive.

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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by LoBaron »

By the way, in general I do not think that using high value assets, such as IJN CAs, in a bait/AA role as primary mission, is a good idea anyway. They are too important, and you have to allow for so many unknowns and factors beyond your influence, that the probability of a successful (whatever successful in this context means) mission is pretty low.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by obvert »

I'm really still wondering about the fixation on AA in the first place in this thread and several others. If you look at evidence from the war the Japanese use of AA was only sporadically effective, mostly around large bases and airfields. Concentration does work, and you can pile a bunch into a hex to get a good kill ratio against Allied planes. Probably better than was possible in the war, but never as good as Allied AA, and that's how t should be.

With ships, you want to have air cover. Nothing else will do. Even Allied ships caught in the open without good CAP cover will be hit in spite of the great AA they have in most cases. As LoBaron states above, if you're making TFs around AA considerations, you're losing the potential of those ships. They're good at surface engagements and bombardments. They run far and fast if there is an air strike threat around. That is consistent with the war.

I understand trying to learn and get better at these things, but you're focusing on minutia that you can't really control and that won't affect the larger outcomes much, but may lead to detrimental results if these are the first considerations of TF creation and use.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'm really still wondering about the fixation on AA in the first place in this thread and several others. If you look at evidence from the war the Japanese use of AA was only sporadically effective, mostly around large bases and airfields. Concentration does work, and you can pile a bunch into a hex to get a good kill ratio against Allied planes. Probably better than was possible in the war, but never as good as Allied AA, and that's how t should be.
I would just want to qualify this by saying it wasn't an inate lack of anything in the IJ AA that caused it to be not effect, it was simply quantity. The allies put together far larger AA units with more of everything than the IJ ever even conceived of. I mean, the IJA thinks a Rgmt of AA is 16 tubes with a 8 MG's in support. Pfft ... allied ID's have that much (or more) organically. The USA? How about 64 tubes with 64 MG's supporting them for an AA Rgmt? And the IJ doesn't get that many AA Rgmts anyway, mostly Bn's which are half that size or less.

So in game, when the IJ masses most of its AA in a base, it can get allied AA results largely because they have finally achieved 'normal' allied AA gun density. [:D]

Of course the allies can do this in ~20 locations ... the IJ can do this in at most 4 if they literally pull every AA unit they have. Ditto on the sea ... the IJN just never put together AA in any form like the allies did. They counted more heavily on their fighters ....

Before anyone thinks I am suggesting the IJ were foolish or made a big miss, I want to suggest that this was as much as consequence of their economy as anything else. You can't build everything as the IJ, even in game; you just don't have enough HI. They had tough choices to make and they made them. I agonize over the same things as a player: should I add another few points to VEH or ARM for my LCU replacements or build more AC or accelerate another CV? Anyone who has played the IJ side knows these are tough choices that will impact your game before the end.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by obvert »

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: obvert

I'm really still wondering about the fixation on AA in the first place in this thread and several others. If you look at evidence from the war the Japanese use of AA was only sporadically effective, mostly around large bases and airfields. Concentration does work, and you can pile a bunch into a hex to get a good kill ratio against Allied planes. Probably better than was possible in the war, but never as good as Allied AA, and that's how t should be.
I would just want to qualify this by saying it wasn't an inate lack of anything in the IJ AA that caused it to be not effect, it was simply quantity. The allies put together far larger AA units with more of everything than the IJ ever even conceived of. I mean, the IJA thinks a Rgmt of AA is 16 tubes with a 8 MG's in support. Pfft ... allied ID's have that much (or more) organically. The USA? How about 64 tubes with 64 MG's supporting them for an AA Rgmt? And the IJ doesn't get that many AA Rgmts anyway, mostly Bn's which are half that size or less.

So in game, when the IJ masses most of its AA in a base, it can get allied AA results largely because they have finally achieved 'normal' allied AA gun density. [:D]

Of course the allies can do this in ~20 locations ... the IJ can do this in at most 4 if they literally pull every AA unit they have. Ditto on the sea ... the IJN just never put together AA in any form like the allies did. They counted more heavily on their fighters ....

Before anyone thinks I am suggesting the IJ were foolish or made a big miss, I want to suggest that this was as much as consequence of their economy as anything else. You can't build everything as the IJ, even in game; you just don't have enough HI. They had tough choices to make and they made them. I agonize over the same things as a player: should I add another few points to VEH or ARM for my LCU replacements or build more AC or accelerate another CV? Anyone who has played the IJ side knows these are tough choices that will impact your game before the end.

I would say Pax that there were some other factors. As with many other facets of the IJ 'war plan' often the best solution was not followed extensively or efficiently. It wasn't just numbers, although that is true. It was also models that were emphasized, tactics and procedure, logistics and many other factors that kept AA from being a top notch tool for the IJ, on land or on ship.

As I mentioned, if you stack a bunch of units you get a decent effect in game, but then you've hung a few other bases out to dry completely. So it is scale, but on ship it's really the complete lack of a 40mm or other medium AA gun that kept them much farther back.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by PaxMondo »

ORIGINAL: obvert

I would say Pax that there were some other factors. As with many other facets of the IJ 'war plan' often the best solution was not followed extensively or efficiently. It wasn't just numbers, although that is true. It was also models that were emphasized, tactics and procedure, logistics and many other factors that kept AA from being a top notch tool for the IJ, on land or on ship.

As I mentioned, if you stack a bunch of units you get a decent effect in game, but then you've hung a few other bases out to dry completely. So it is scale, but on ship it's really the complete lack of a 40mm or other medium AA gun that kept them much farther back.
Erik,

100% agree, there were other factors and no medium AA is a huge hole. Still, for me, it all about the economy ... even if they had had the Bofors designed and tooled up, they couldn't have built enough of them and gotten them installed soon enough to have mattered without some other big things not getting done. I mean they would had to have NOT built some DD's or a few hundred planes or .... and each one of those "ors" was in huge demand.
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by Yaab »

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

You do not need to be an expert on game mechanics to make assumptions on whether the data you observe is self consistent and sufficient.

My impression is that you attempt to estimate the # of ships/AA mounts that enable you to build, how you call it, an AA TF and use it as trap(bait?) against naval strikes. To draw conclusions what number is sufficient for survival as well as effect, you seem to tie the number of AA mounts to the number of attacking aircraft, and from there attempt to deduce how many ships you need to be successful without generating hits on your ships.

So basically you observe following variables:
- # of AA guns/# of ships
- # of attacking a/c

and then establish a causal relation of those numbers to the number of hits on your ships (and maybe to the a/c shot down).

But what you ignore is that number of hits is the result of many more causal relationships. Just to name a few, theres many more):

- # of AA guns/# of ships
- # of attacking a/c
- TF DL/MDL
- a/c pilot skill
- initial a/c pilot fatigue
- strike distance (also affecting fatigue)
- squadron commander skill
- TF leader skill
- ship attributes (IIRC mvr&speed and maybe displacement)
- ship commander skill
- crew exp
- attacking a/c type
- attcking a/c loadout
- weather

If you are only observing part of those variables, any observation you make is worthless.

I am aware that one cannot know all variables impacting a specific combat situation except with access to the code (I would never claim I do), but even without that knowledge you can set a framework that minimizes the impact of variables you do not know or want to rule out as a factor. What you need to do is keep the test setup as static as possible, and only change those variables you want to observe. But depending on the variables you do not know, and depending on th ecomplexity of the situation you want to observe, you have to make several dozens of repetitions to get statistically significant data.

But even then, you only have a rough baseline for a very specific set of variables, so tests would not support you in predicting results reliably if the variables significantly diverge from your sandbox setup. And that such variation will happen in a campaign is pretty much a given.

What I DON'T KNOW is if 25 bombers attack one ship (as with the second combat report), do they perform their attack simultaneously or are their broken down into smaller packets, which wait for their turn for the attack?

In most instances they are broken down into smaller packets and attack sequentially. You can see the composition of the packets in the combat animations.
If it is the latter, and at one time only i.e. four dive-bombers attack CA Chokai, then the CA can concentrate all her AA fire on those four bombers provided the guns are not limited in their targeting by Right Side/Left Side placement.

No, because even in the above described sequential attack you will notice a target saturation effect. The more a/c attack, the less concentrated is the AA.
That leads us to a question what is the direction from which the dive-bombers attack a ship. Combat animation only gives you direction information when a torpedo bomber attacks. A dive-bomber has no direction, it always attacks a ship from overhead(?), thus it may face the AA from all the AA guns on the ship.

Please take this with a grain of salt as I have not seen the code. My personal assumption is all attacks face one or more sides of a ship (Front/Rear/Right Side/Left Side/All), depending on a dice roll. The details of this have never been revealed.


You raise good, valid, and interesting questions, but please be aware that even if answered they will not make you tests, as you currently seem to set them up, more conclusive.


Oh yes, my test was very crude. I think one thing stands out in your list: the attacking a/c type. Allied dive-bomber and torpedo aircraft have better durability and armor. I can only surmise that, even if a dedicated 13.2mm or 25mm mount (single or twin) targets and shoots solely at one Allied aircraft, it is not enough to damage or destroy the aircraft, but probably enough for the aircraft to fail its bombing/torpedo run.

As crude as the test was, it gave a me a general idea of what to look for in terms of AA value when forming a high-value TF like an air combat TF. While previously, when choosing ships accompanying my CVs, I was thinking in terms of armor and endurance of BBs and CAs and ASW weapons of DDs, now I see another important criterion, namely the number of DP guns on these ships. Maya class CA maxes out at 12 such guns, and several Japanese DDs max out at 6 DP guns, with one such device having a range of 19,000 yards instead of standard 16,000 yards. By the way, I am not thinking about the DP guns as aircraft-killer devices, but rather disruption devices that boost the survivability of Japanese CV TFs.

As for packet strikes, I can see those packets in combat animation (the packets seem to max out at 3 or 4 aircraft), but I have never understood if those packets are attacking at once or in a queue. Was it safe for i.e 12 aircraft to dive at one ship at once? I would think there would be mid-air collisions among dive-bombers climbing back if too many dive-bombers were attacking simulatenosuly.

And one more thing. I have saved a piece of information from the forums saying that disbanded ships shoot 50% of its AA when there is an air raid on the port they are in. I did several attacks with my B-17s from Clark Field on Bataan Island in the beginning of the war and always scored several hits on ships (Es,DMS,CMs,xAK i.e), which the Jap AI disbands there, and faced no flak there. I have a strong suspicion that during such attacks only ships’ DP guns contribute to AA fire. Many Jap xAK have only one such gun, so firing them at 50% value probably means the gun does not fire at all. I do not know how to create sandbox test, but if there were 10 ships with a total of 50 x 25mm guns disbanded in a port, and 4 x B-17s attacked the port from 6,000 feet, I think they would face no AA fire at all instead of the 25 x 25mm gun fire. That alone probably makes B-17s such ship killers on port attacks.

Basically, my suspicion is that DP guns are mutual (TF, port) defense guns, while 25mm and 13mm guns are individual (ship) defense guns. I do not what category 8cm short guns fall in, but they are not that ubiquitous as the other Japanese shipborne flak guns.
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crsutton
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RE: Japanese shipborne flak

Post by crsutton »

One thing about flak in the game. Watching the animations I don't ever think I have seen a damaged bomber hit a target. Or if so it is so rare as to not be a factor. And it seems all flak, light and heavy attack before the bomb drop. So even minor damage on an aircraft will have an impact. As little as one star of damage seems to guarantee a miss.
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