[DWU] Balance Mod v0.9 (extended TechTree) [Cancelled in protest]

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Unforeseen
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Unforeseen »

I'm disappointed that your not allowing your mod to be included in compilations, but i understand none the less. I'm building a mod compilation/game speed overhaul that's goal is to make a slower more realistic and diverse galaxy, "orange mod". This would be perfect :P.

I immediately noticed you removed the Titan Beam. Perhaps you could make it to branch off another weapon much in the way that phasers branch to lances, becoming an alternative with it's own advantages and drawbacks. For instance, if the Titan Beam were to be an alternate for the Shatter, it could have higher damage but increased size and power usage.

Also, it looks like you also removed the death ray and the super laser..?
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Tehlongone
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Tehlongone »

This looks really interesting I think I'll try it out with my next game.

I was thinking, instead of outright deleting the wrap up techs why not introduce them halfway through the other lines leading to it and have it be a "mixed" component balanced to not really be better necessarily but not specialized either. Like Meridian shields that have less effect than the Dense shields but still a bit more regenerate.

Like the last level would be roughly the average of the others, so Meridian would be 225 strength and 1.8 regeneration. It doesn't ruin diversity as it's not strictly better.

Also, maybe some of the racial techs should be re-balanced towards not being so strictly overpowered? Stuff like countermeasure/targeting where the last (very expensive) conventional tech isn't even better than the first (very cheap) racial version.. This tech is then easily stolen making the conventional tech tree irrelevant.

Similar with other techs, Zenox shields aren't just strictly the best overall, they are by far the best in all categories. I think by removing the powerful wrap up techs you are further boosting the superiority of racial techs.

Either they should be toned down a bit or all the conventional techs need a boost at least at the last levels to compensate for the removed wrap up tech.
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AnddyiRaynor
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by AnddyiRaynor »

I found the colonization techs were to cheap so I boosted the initial cost for them, I liked the reduced costs for getting ship sizes higher but the ai still only get the 230 one early on and don't bother with the 300 ones for the longest time. I only boosted the colonization because it was like 480-720k tech and having boosted all the ai's research by 50% so that they could keep up with me that wasn't going to be balanced. I may reduce it on my next game seeing as the ai seem to always go for colonization first.

I did find it annoying at first that so much early game tech I go for was already researched but it's for the best since the ai would take ages to get it anyways. It was strange that this one ai race got 4 colonies out of no where then got 8 next time I looked while no one else really had more than 2 and I was busy building my first colony ship. That race though had marsh and continental colonization researched though but they didn't even have the bakarus high speed thing (at least they like me). It'd be really nice if you could set more research priorities in the race.txts the way the ai is set up now is not really that great for a singleplayer game, though the research is not balanced enough for a multiplayer game so where's the game even fit. I like it though.
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Locarnus
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Locarnus »

@Unforeseen: It will be in the future, but until now it has been about 1 update per day (except for today ;-)) and some larger changes might be coming as well, with more tech projects and I have barely scratched the high tech screen so far.
Already sent a pm to Erik asking for an additional dummy variable in the facilities file, to introduce/differentiate something like "national wonders" (in civ terms, essentially 1 building per empire, not 1 per galaxy).

For the future another Beam weapon may take the place (graphics effect slot) of the titan beam. But with 2 pulse and 2 energy stream weapons already (non racial), I dont feel it is a priority for now.

While I dont like the concept of superweapons in general, I recognize that they can be found in ruins and tech should not be confined to luck. So I will introduce (vanilla)/reintroduce (Extended) them, when I add more research projects for other parts. With the sequential IDs and my priority of keeping the mod easily extendable for racial techs/different mods, this is actually quite an undertaking, so I try to do it in one go.

@Tehlongone:
I will do this in the future. For the shields I left the line behind the standard corvidian shields free, even when I adjusted the techs in the last update. I m not sure whether to introduce the Meridian, or simply extend the corvidian (or what they are called) to be the middle ground between the 2 extremes.
Also note that most shield recharge rates are about double the vanilla values, still an ongoing process of tweaking.

I try to leave most of the racial tech balancing to the race modders (eg Haree78) in relation to the base game. The stealing is a problem though.
Generally I dont like the idea of race techs, that defies the whole concept of technology. They should just get standard techs cheaper and with different effects (weapons). But that would require tinkering around in the components file.

@AnddyiRaynor:
Yes, the construction seems a bit off, I m not sure whether to make more steps in that line, or just lower the level of the 300 size tech or so.

The colonization costs are also a problem not solved yet. The main reason behind the reduced costs was, that the AI was shooting for it, but especially with higher base research costs (even 480k) it kept them off other techs for so long.

I would prefer it if I could divide the ability to colonize from the possible colony size on that type.
eg you can relatively early on colonize a desert planet, but it would be stuck at 100mio people or so until you research much more costly techs. That way you can have something like an outpost, but it would cost you financially (biospheres are costly).

Maybe I try to tinker with the tech based colony growth rates as a bad workaround (migration will put that off in the mid game anyway).

I will also probably increase the costs of the non base colonization techs again.

The 2 specifiable tech priorities are indeed not optimal, but I leave that issue to the race modders ;-) and try to work around it in the research file.

Like I did with the medicine line I will introduce steps in between if I moved a level 1 tech to level 0.

Generally,
I want to mod as little as possible in the components.txt for now, to make it easily adjustable to other mods. The research.txt is enough work for now.
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Tehlongone
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Tehlongone »

In an earlier version of Distant Worlds many (not all) of the racial techs were only best until the last levels of the wrap up techs.

Personally I think the best way to get around the whole "only-this-race can discover the optimal way of doing x" would be to allow them to be significantly superior at first but then level off until it's either equal to or slightly inferior to the best conventional tech. For balance it'd be best if the racial tech just stopped progress before the last step and then the last conventional step is slightly better or equal.

It allows the racial techs to be a boon to the race in that tech area without making them permanently better or forcing an empire that wants to achieve optimal technological supremacy to grab foreign tech as opposed to actually researching it.

Also a problem with leaving racial balancing to race modders is that their components are balanced against vanilla and as you have re-balanced things they no longer fit with the rest...
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Locarnus
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Locarnus »

I thought about the balance of race techs when I removed the wrap up techs like titan beam.
My thought behind doing it the current way was, to keep the mid game tech diversity for the end as well.

This would include that certain races have advantages in their techs over the other empires in the spirit of a theoretically never ending tech tree.
Of course the other side of the problem is, that tech savvy races can not maintain the tech advantage in a finite tech tree.
So a tech savvy race can keep up with racial techs by just researching faster, but only until reaching the end of the tech tree...
I wanted to keep this problem far away by extending the tech tree far enough, but since I have to cap research costs at level 8 to not crash the game at higher base research settings, this is hardly possible now. A dilemma under current restrictions.

Tech stealing is a problem in any case though.

I tried to keep a lot of the base game balance for that reason.
So far I only really fiddled with phasers and shield recharge in terms of numbers. Torpedos are next I think.

When you look at the techs you will notice that former level 3 techs (it starts at tech level 0) are divided. The end of the components introduced in level 1 stays on level 3. The new components of level 3 got shifted to level 4.
Then the improvements of those level 3 components on level 4 where moved to level 6 and the gap was filled, while the orginal level 4 tech retained its name in nearly all cases and even the projectID to make it easy for modders to hang in their race techs. What works for the base game in term of parents should work for this mod as well in most cases.
The level 6 tech then got shifted to level 10 (keeping nearly all values) and the gaps were just filled up with in between values.
A similar process was done for the race techs to preserve as much of the DW:U Extended mod balance as possible for now.
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Unforeseen
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Unforeseen »

May i suggest requiring at least 3 if not all 4 energy weapon trees and perhaps the graviton beam tree to be completed in order to begin researching the superlaser. I can live without the death ray, that weapon made no logical sense at all. There is no need for a weapon that does 18OO damage that isn't a planet destroyer. The death ray implies that it is a crew killing weapon, not a ship destroyer. Thus it would be..most probably a radiation weapon such as a neutron cannon. But to my knowledge the mechanics for such a weapon do not exist in this particular game which is fine by me honestly.

This slot would better serve as the missing plasma cannon.
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Tanaka
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Tanaka »

ORIGINAL: Locarnus

@dwaine:
Thanks, will try that!

@Tanaka:
Wow, totally missed that mod, will need to check it out.

So far I only "rebalanced" the early tech projects, specifically the ones concerning the GeraxHyperdrive and Warp Bubble generator.

All of them need less energy now, because of the autodesign failure concerning eg freighters, which do not get enough reactors to fulfill the hyperdrive requirements, resulting in lots of problems. Not what I wanted, but that part is hard coded and Erik does not see it as a bug, so no priority change if at all.

The progression is something like 2k, 5k, 8k and then something. The pirates start with 8k because anything lower would cripple them too much.
It is not fixed by any means, it is mostly just working around hardcoded problems.


Looks like they have fixed the reactor problem in the new patch!
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Locarnus
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Locarnus »

@Unforeseen:
The superweapons will have multiple line requirements as you suggested. I m not sure which, since I dont want to give a race a disadvantage for eg researching torpedos and rail guns, because there is now superweapon for them.

Not sure what to make of the death ray either, the current problem is, that the facilities.txt seems to be very much set for the vanilla game/categories. I doubt the way it is set up now, the AI could handle something like a massive plasma cannon.

@Tanaka:
Yep, I will make some changes to the reactors in the next patch.
About the engines I have to talk to Foma. Totally missed his mod about the whole speed rebalances.


@DEVs:

Is it possible to change how the facilities.txt deals with wonders?
For example that the type determines for the ai what the facility does.
And the facility/wonder differentiation is done by a dummy variable.

So effects which are currently only achieved by wonders would then be possible by normal facilities as well.

It would also be very helpful to create a new third type of facility, a kind of national wonder (one per empire restriction), eg having the value 1 for the dummy variable, with 0 being facilities and 2 being the current wonder types (one in the galaxy).

Thanks!
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AnddyiRaynor
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by AnddyiRaynor »

It'd be so nice if they did make the better facilities.txt, that death ray is so overkill, I got it while exploring ruins and it'd be so cheap to build a bunch of high armored/sheilded ships with that weapon on it that just one kills everything in it's path. Of course everyone would hate you for your power, hardly a problem in my game where they hate me because of the difficulty.
FireLion1983
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by FireLion1983 »

ORIGINAL: AnddyiRaynor

It'd be so nice if they did make the better facilities.txt, that death ray is so overkill, I got it while exploring ruins and it'd be so cheap to build a bunch of high armored/sheilded ships with that weapon on it that just one kills everything in it's path. Of course everyone would hate you for your power, hardly a problem in my game where they hate me because of the difficulty.
I understand it might suck for gameplay, but it would be entirely reasonable to see happen in real life.
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Locarnus
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Locarnus »

I m approaching release of 0.9, it should come out within the next 12 hours or so.

There will be a lot of additional research projects, especially for the HighTech tree (to balance against the other 2).
Also, many weapon systems are rebalanced, with priority on beam weapons and racial weapons.
Reactors are rebalanced as well, to be 1/3rd the size in all aspects, for better fitting. Since 1.9.5.2 the ai puts enough of them on civilian ships as well.
Lots of other additions/changes, including superweapons.

@AnddyiRaynor:
The superweapons will be nerfed considerably in 0.9 to not break the late game diversity/balance.
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Unforeseen
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Unforeseen »

The anticipation is killing me!!!!!!! [X(]
Sithuk
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Sithuk »

@Locarnus: I am watching the results of your work with interest.

Have you considered an early tech repairbot component? It could help alleviate the situation where a few damaged armour components result in excessive player micromanagement to send a ship(s) back to a spaceport to repair. Or, worse, a fleet under AI control breaks off a fleet defend stance to send the fleet back to base to repair a few damaged armour components, leaving the defend target undefended. An early repairbot component could ease the impact of these issues. The design templates would clearly have to be adjusted to ensure it is added.

Awaiting the 0.9 change log with interest.
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Locarnus
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Locarnus »

Update to version 0.9 released

v0.9
- 100 additional research projects (new and gap fillers)
- rebalanced most weapons (especially beam weapons and the added Superweapons)
- rebalanced reactors to 1/3 the size and stats for better custom fitting (AI and player)
- added and rebalanced shields
- rebalanced repair bots
- whole HighTech research tree rebalanced and projects added
- wonders nerfed


So, finally done with 0.9. A lot of new/different stuff in this one!

@Sithuk:
Yeah, didnt do this before, since I tried avoiding the components.txt as much as possible. With all the component rebalances now, the damage control component gets a repair function, although a very slow one (30sec).
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Franky007
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Franky007 »

Just checking the startup game:

I think that the tech Enhanced HyperDrives should be a Tech level 2 instead of 1.

My Escort and Freighter dont have the required reactors for max Hyper speed. That was supposed fixed in the last patch ?

I would prefer a speed of 10000 for the Jump sequence optimization (scaling everything down).

The Compressed fuel storage at 140 capacity seems a little OP. (I would put it at 100)

Great work overall.
[:)]
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ASHBERY76
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by ASHBERY76 »

If you do a balance mod you really need to state reasons.Also adding lots of new stuff makes it more like a mod than a balance mod.
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Locarnus
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Locarnus »

@Francoy:
I had to move the Enhanced HyperDrives to level 1, because the pirates were nerfed too much in earlier versions starting only with hyperspeed of 5000. Now they start with 8000. It doesnt look nice that way, but it is only way I know of to give the player/normal empires smaller increments in speed without nerfing the pirates into oblivion.
edit: I can control the costs seperately if too cheap (but not the AI research sequences), at the moment level 1 and 2 have the same costs anyway.

For more hyperspeed rebalancing, I asked Foma to merge his ideas with mine, but he has not answered yet, so I postponed it to a later version. The fuel storage was not touched yet, for the same reason.

Hm, will need to check the freighters and escorts again. In my tests the AI put enough reactors on everything, except mining ships (already mentioned this to the devs in the 1.9.5.2 update thread).

@ASHERBY76:
The main reason was (as stated) that the tech tree was too short for normal research cost settings and the pirates too strong with higher research cost settings. There is little new stuff, mostly just stretching and filling up.

The tech "rebalances" of this version could use more descriptions, but after battling with errors and such stuff for many hours yesterday and today, I postponed a more detailed description and just published the current state.
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Franky007
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Franky007 »

Upon further testing, here what is happening:

Test with Human Empire, tech level 1.
The default template for small freighter has 1 Reactor.
The latest patch add 1 reactor to the design when there is not enough, but it need 2 more.
So increase the energy ouput of reactor, or increase the number of reactors on all templates...

edit: The problem with the Enhanced HyperDrives at level 1, is that when starting at level 1, you get the 2 hyperdrive at the same time. (Sorry i don't see how to give it to the Pirate without giving it to the player!).
Ra131
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RE: [DWU] Balance Mod (extended TechTree) [WIP]

Post by Ra131 »

Interesting mod, wait for final version....
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