Final Word: Starports vs. Starbses

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: Tcby

Point three is correct. Point 2 is..somewhat correct. Number 1 is incorrect.

The issue is not simply fuel related. If you have a starport (or more specifically, any base with construction yards), then the private sector will make sure that there are enough resources at that port to build large amounts of ships. Basically, they send a certain amount of all strategic resources to that base so that it won't immediately stall due to resources shortages when you issue a build order.

Players avoid building starports for this reason; it is easier to manage resources when the private sector isn't trying to spread them evenly across multiple locations. Also, its a pretty big deal that you can only build Bakuras is one location.

Thanks for correcting me, but unfortunately I am still confused.

1. I cannot find a definition of exactly what a commerce centre does, Jeeves' economy guide doesn't mention them.
2. If a commerce centre simply buffs trade by x% then the real question is what defines trade on a planet and how do you determine how much it is?
3. From what you say fuel is distributed to all bases, whether starport, star base or defence platform?
4. The basic rule of thumb is if you don't want to build ships at a planet, don't build a starport?

The main issues I'm trying to figure out around this question at the moment are these:

A. I always seem to have enough resources to build ships at HW (where I have the Bakarus) but the LSP there is always running out of fuel to fill up new ships, and most other starports run out of it as well when I'm running military campaigns. I want to fix that somehow.

B. I am struggling to figure out the trigger point to build a star base/defense platform on planets, or how to design them, that I don't want to build a starport on. I get the happiness bonuses from rec/med when I want to tax the colony, but i can't understand the benefits you get from a commerce centre or how to gauge how many docks are required for a planet etc.

[Bingeling]

ORIGINAL: Gregorovitch55

1. I cannot find a definition of exactly what a commerce centre does, Jeeves' economy guide doesn't mention them.
2. If a commerce centre simply buffs trade by x% then the real question is what defines trade on a planet and how do you determine how much it is?
3. From what you say fuel is distributed to all bases, whether starport, star base or defence platform?
4. The basic rule of thumb is if you don't want to build ships at a planet, don't build a starport?

The main issues I'm trying to figure out around this question at the moment are these:

A. I always seem to have enough resources to build ships at HW (where I have the Bakarus) but the LSP there is always running out of fuel to fill up new ships, and most other starports run out of it as well when I'm running military campaigns. I want to fix that somehow.

B. I am struggling to figure out the trigger point to build a star base/defense platform on planets, or how to design them, that I don't want to build a starport on. I get the happiness bonuses from rec/med when I want to tax the colony, but i can't understand the benefits you get from a commerce centre or how to gauge how many docks are required for a planet etc.

3: All facilities at colonies share the colony's storage. Fuel is distributed to colonies, but probably more of it is sent to one with spaceports, and more is requested the larger the spaceport (not size, but if small, medium large).

4: Calling spaceports for starports does not make this less confusing I would build spaceports when I feel the need for another one. A need grounded in more capacity for ship building, a new location for ship building, or a location for repairs. I would resist building based on repair need from early pirate annoyances somewhat near the capital, though.

A. Make sure to build a gas mine on any fuel location remotely near to the capital. How much fuel you drain probably depends on your economy and way of playing. Slower games give more time to store fuel. Losing more ships in combat and having lots of automated ships running around drains more fuel. Deploy resupply ships in systems where you have fuel issues. And don't add new builds to active fleets if you suspect they may be built with no fuel. Have them refuel at the local resupply ship first. Is one resupply ship not enough? Deploy another one, you should be able to fit several resupply ships and a gas mine on the same gas giant.

B. I don't mess with ship designs, but you don't really need docking bays if you have no spaceport. Colonies have a lot of docking capacity, but should be a bit slower in moving cargo. If you capture a capital, give it a spaceport, for other colonies, a number like 6 should probably more than enough docking bays.

Why a spaceport at a former capital? There is probably a lot of resources stored that other, including foreign, colonies want a piece of.

[Aquitaine]

ORIGINAL: necaradan666

You keep saying starports instead of star bases... Way to confuse the guy haha

*brain explode*

[necaradan666]

I have never really found a good use for Star Bases. If I want a base at a colony why not get a Spaceport, or a heavily armed Defensive Base if I only want to deter pirate raids.

The Star Base subrole seems like it has no purpose beyond being there so the game can have storyline/abandoned bases. If you don't create a design yourself you're not supplied with an automated Star Base design to build, apart from whatever ones you find abandoned and are automatically set to obsolete.

If anything Star Bases could be for places you have no colony, like deep space, but will usually take millennia to get stocked with fuel so they are useless as forward refuelling stations. When coming across abandoned Star Bases I would usually scrap them to save on maintenance unless they have a scanner before I've researched them.

[Aquitaine]

My understanding is that there is no difference to a human player between 'star base' and 'defense base' - only 'star port,' which tells freighters to 'fill me up with all the things' and every other orbital base type, none of which have any special role unless you put the AI in charge of building them.

[Shark7]

As you have already seen there are a ton of ways to accomplish this. I'll get more to the points you've asked about:

1. The easiest way to know if you are ready for a new space port is to check the galaxy planner and re-arrange your unfulfilled resources from highest to lowest. If there are a lot of these on the list, then you are not ready at all to build a new space port. If there are only a handful of resources with small unfulfilled quantities, you are probably in good enough shape to build a new space port.

2. I'll refer to Frederick the Great: He who defends everything defends nothing. Simply put, your navy can not be every where at once. It's generally a good idea to put at least enough weapons on all bases so they can fend of light pirate raids. Ships cost a lot more than a few guns on a base.

2a. The reason to build the bases is that you get development bonuses from having a base with recreation and medical facilities. Meaning the colony will grow faster and start paying taxes sooner. I have my policy set to build a star base (later switched to a monitoring station so I get the sensor coverage) as soon as the planet is colonized.

[feelotraveller]

An important thing to keep in mind is that there are a lot of different ways to play Distant Worlds, and lots of different conditions you can play under. That said I don't find a reason to build starbases. If I'm going to build something it will be a spaceport.

I tend to play large irregular galaxies so I like a lot of spaceports, often (eventually) one in each colonised system. Some worlds which will never get much population might never get one. Usually only the best planet in a system gets a spaceport. If playing cluster (or other) maps less spaceports are needed in the dense areas.

Many of my spaceports are lightly armed, with sufficient shields/armour to hold out until a fleet arrives. Most systems also get a token defense force. But... if you don't have any base in the system a colony only really needs troops. [;)] On the other hand my frontline spaceports can usually take down a small fleet on their own. I prefer a stronger spaceport to adding defensive bases except where their primary purpose is the hold off troops landing. When a heavily armed spaceport is no longer on the frontlines I reduce its weapons and defenses.

The question of when to build a spaceport has many determinants. They cost maintenance and any extra tax is money not going to the private sector. What is gained by building 'this' spaceport here now? Extra trade, ship building/repair/retrofitting facilities, fuel dump, defense, etc. For me there is no simple answer and it varies from game to game and at different times during the same game.

[Spidey]

2a. The reason to build the bases is that you get development bonuses from having a base with recreation and medical facilities. Meaning the colony will grow faster and start paying taxes sooner.

Do you have any data on this, Shark? Because I've never managed to observe much of a growth difefrence between colonies with and colonies without rec and med facilities.

[Gregorovitch55]

ORIGINAL: Spidey

2a. The reason to build the bases is that you get development bonuses from having a base with recreation and medical facilities. Meaning the colony will grow faster and start paying taxes sooner.

Do you have any data on this, Shark? Because I've never managed to observe much of a growth difefrence between colonies with and colonies without rec and med facilities.

[&:]

OK, I'm sure now how to tell, roughly, if I should build a space port or not - it's basically to do with whether you have the necessary resources available to stock it and whether you do or do not need/want additional repair and refueling facilities in the locality.

I am also reasonably sure that having a base of some kind with rec/med facilities will enable you to tax at a higher rate because they increase happiness.

On building star base/defense platforms on planets where you do not need/want a space port before the population is maxed out (or reaches a level where you decide to levy taxes) I am still confused:

1. The med/rec facilities either do or do not promote population growth in new colonies. If it doesn't, what benefit is there in having them until you start taxing?

2. What benefit is there from having a commerce centre on a planet at all? Does it create revenue for the exchequer?. Does it promote development? Does it promote population growth? Does it promote foreign trade?

[necaradan666]

more happiness = faster growth according to Colony Taxes in Galactopedia, could be wrong though as many things in there are suspect. Per my observations though every time I have a new colony that's on the neutral face and add a base with med/rec they receive happiness go happy face and pop growth goes up a few points, so I assume that's the effect it has.

[Spidey]

So I went back to an empty sandbox game, added some mirror copy planets, and tried out what happened if I simply had one pair build a growth base and the other not build it. All my passenger ships are hyperdrive-free, so they're stuck in my homeworld system which should, theoretically speaking, shut down emigration effects. And the effect is, while not really huge so far, at least quite impossible to miss. The two colonies that have a growth base have grown about 50% over approximately three years while the two without growth bases have grown 30% in the same period. I'll let them keep at it for a few more years to see if they reach steady growth percentages and then I'll bump them to 500 mil each and see how long it takes them to get to, say, 5 billion.

But the point to take away from this is that growth bases, meaning barebones star bases with a med and rec facilities, do buff growth a bit, and since there's really no such thing as "too much" growth, the best approach seems to be a relatively quickly construction of these bases.

[Tcby]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKUOB8MN4Kc

[Bingeling]

Spidey: If you obsolete all the passenger ship designs, you are sure there is none built and no migration.

Some resources influence growth too, right? Make sure they have the same cargo, and that nothing is mined. I have not messed with the editor enough to know if this is easily fixed. The colonies should be true clones in resources in cargo and on the colony.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Spidey

2a. The reason to build the bases is that you get development bonuses from having a base with recreation and medical facilities. Meaning the colony will grow faster and start paying taxes sooner.

Do you have any data on this, Shark? Because I've never managed to observe much of a growth difefrence between colonies with and colonies without rec and med facilities.

Other than my experiences no definitive proof. I have noticed that a happier population gets its growth rate increased. You'll also get more migration to a happy, healthy planet, if you accept other race families.

Plus there is the fact that you will eventually want something built to get those bonuses, so I just set it up to be taken care of automatically at colonization. Just keeping it simple.

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Spidey

So I went back to an empty sandbox game, added some mirror copy planets, and tried out what happened if I simply had one pair build a growth base and the other not build it. All my passenger ships are hyperdrive-free, so they're stuck in my homeworld system which should, theoretically speaking, shut down emigration effects. And the effect is, while not really huge so far, at least quite impossible to miss. The two colonies that have a growth base have grown about 50% over approximately three years while the two without growth bases have grown 30% in the same period. I'll let them keep at it for a few more years to see if they reach steady growth percentages and then I'll bump them to 500 mil each and see how long it takes them to get to, say, 5 billion.

But the point to take away from this is that growth bases, meaning barebones star bases with a med and rec facilities, do buff growth a bit, and since there's really no such thing as "too much" growth, the best approach seems to be a relatively quickly construction of these bases.

Responded to the other quote before seeing this one. I'm glad you had the patience to actually put this to the test and get a definitive answer.

Happy planets grow faster. [:)]

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

Spidey: If you obsolete all the passenger ship designs, you are sure there is none built and no migration.

Some resources influence growth too, right? Make sure they have the same cargo, and that nothing is mined. I have not messed with the editor enough to know if this is easily fixed. The colonies should be true clones in resources in cargo and on the colony.

He removed hyperdrives from all designs and updated them, from what I gather, making sure there were no designs capable of leaving the home system.

[Gregorovitch55]

That's wicked, Spidey. The law of compound interest would suggest building such a base on a new colony asap is the best policy.

[Bingeling]

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Plus there is the fact that you will eventually want something built to get those bonuses, so I just set it up to be taken care of automatically at colonization. Just keeping it simple.

Are they automatically built on conquest, and rebuilt if they are destroyed?

[Shark7]

ORIGINAL: Bingeling

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Plus there is the fact that you will eventually want something built to get those bonuses, so I just set it up to be taken care of automatically at colonization. Just keeping it simple.

Are they automatically built on conquest, and rebuilt if they are destroyed?

Unfortunately its only on colonizing, any planet you conquer will have to be built manually. Perhaps something we should ask Elliot for?

[CyclopsSlayer]

YMMV

What I do is build a single mega-SpacePort over my Home world. Usually 24+ Construction Yards, and 2x Docking ports as yards. Huge Fuel reserves. All my labs are centered there. This Port will contain all my empires scientists, so I make sure to build all the R&D Wonders there.

On the active military fronts I will order a version of the SpacePort, but without the Labs. NEVER more than 1 of these for every 20 additional worlds in my empire. Older, backfield SpacePorts I may even decommission and replace with a Starbase or Defense Base. This keeps construction centralized where desired and concentrates resources where needed. Where or when possible built at a site where there is a hub of trade routes.

The standard Research base designs I delete so if I am using the AI to any degree the Private Sector doesn't even become tempted to build one of these farces.

Over each colony I build a Starbase, limited in Size. Containing just the minimum to defend and allow the colony to prosper.
Typically; (built in this order)
- 10-15 Fighter Bays (depending on the aggression in that arena)so that even incomplete the Fighters will launch when the base is fired upon.
- 15 Shields
- 40 Armor
- Rec/Med/Commerce facilities
- 10 Fuel Cells
- The required Reactors, Energy Collectors(!), Docking Bay, Single Cargo hold, Life Support, Hab Modules, ECM (no ECCM)
- Almost never any guns at all. And when I do, the longest range stand off weapons I have.
- An alternate design includes Long Range Scanners, these are only used as needed to extend coverage and not in general as a rule.

Too many ports will scatter construction across your empire, spread your resources to worlds that have no need for them and in general serve to confuse the Freighter AI if shortages arise.