Overrun Issues

[Joseignacio]

Ah. Ok, I understood it the other way round. Thx.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I think you make a rule interpretation mistake.

You can double a unit as much as you like. You can double it for an overrun, a second overrun, a third overrun and finally a land combat if you like. It only cost 4 in the number of units the HQ can double, since each time you double a unit, it counts for usage of the offensive.

However, I conclude this isn't a bug (I know, earlier I said that it was a bug. I'm wrong, I believe). A unit needs to be in range of the HQ to be doubled. The hex the second overrun takes place in, isn't within range of vRundstedt. The four hex range is blocked by the 3-1 GAR, making it a five hex range...

nothing blocks the range of offensives.

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

RAW

11.11.1 How to move land units
You can move your land units one by one, or stack by stack, as you choose. You must finish moving the unit(s) you are moving before you can start moving another unit

I may be wrong, but it looks to me (and we play like this) that you need to end a land unit's movement before moving another in regular land moves as well.

That is indeed RAW but MWIF and RAC is more lenient. The deviation does not really explain all aspects of the deviation except that MWIF is more lenient. For example; In MWIF you can pick up a unit and move it one hex then put it down and move another unit. Then you can go back to the first unit and move it again. There are few exceptions to this and one of them is if you do a overrun.

no you can´t .. when you place down a unit, it is done moving.

[michaelbaldur]

as I see it, the game is simply not coded to allow this.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I think you make a rule interpretation mistake.

You can double a unit as much as you like. You can double it for an overrun, a second overrun, a third overrun and finally a land combat if you like. It only cost 4 in the number of units the HQ can double, since each time you double a unit, it counts for usage of the offensive.

However, I conclude this isn't a bug (I know, earlier I said that it was a bug. I'm wrong, I believe). A unit needs to be in range of the HQ to be doubled. The hex the second overrun takes place in, isn't within range of vRundstedt. The four hex range is blocked by the 3-1 GAR, making it a five hex range...

nothing blocks the range of offensives.

Here is RAW on range of HQ's:

The HQ's reorganisation range is equal to its reorganisation value in motorized
movement points. The path from the HQ to the unit to be reorganised
is traced exactly like a basic supply path, except its maximum length
is determined by the HQ's reorganisation range, and it may not be
traced overseas.

So an enemy ZOC in a hex blocks the range of the HQ if there isn't a friendly unit in that hex. It doesn't matter if that is for an offensive or reorganisation...

However, since Harry ruled that the odds are calculated in the hex before the overrun is done, this is now again a bug. Steve's got something to code...

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: Centuur

I think you make a rule interpretation mistake.

You can double a unit as much as you like. You can double it for an overrun, a second overrun, a third overrun and finally a land combat if you like. It only cost 4 in the number of units the HQ can double, since each time you double a unit, it counts for usage of the offensive.

However, I conclude this isn't a bug (I know, earlier I said that it was a bug. I'm wrong, I believe). A unit needs to be in range of the HQ to be doubled. The hex the second overrun takes place in, isn't within range of vRundstedt. The four hex range is blocked by the 3-1 GAR, making it a five hex range...

nothing blocks the range of offensives.

Here is RAW on range of HQ's:

The HQ's reorganisation range is equal to its reorganisation value in motorized
movement points. The path from the HQ to the unit to be reorganised
is traced exactly like a basic supply path, except its maximum length
is determined by the HQ's reorganisation range, and it may not be
traced overseas.

So an enemy ZOC in a hex blocks the range of the HQ if there isn't a friendly unit in that hex. It doesn't matter if that is for an offensive or reorganisation...

However, since Harry ruled that the odds are calculated in the hex before the overrun is done, this is now again a bug. Steve's got something to code...

when we are talking offensive range, why do you quote reorganization range


16 HQ benefits
If you use an offensive chit in an air or land action, you can apply
some benefits within the “range” of an in supply major power or minor
country HQ. A hex is within range if it is no further away in hexes and
or hex-dots than the chosen HQ’s re-organisation value (ignoring
terrain, neutral countries, enemy units and their ZOCs). Each Asian
and Pacific map hex or hex-dot counts as 2 hexes for this purpose and
each off-map hex counts as 4 hexes.

[Numdydar]

Radio waves care nothing about ZoC's [:D]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Radio waves care nothing about ZoC's [:D]

Maybe so, but transporting large quantities of supplies and replacements needed for a major
offensive do care. [:D]

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Radio waves care nothing about ZoC's [:D]

Maybe so, but transporting large quantities of supplies and replacements needed for a major
offensive do care. [:D]

This f.e. could mean that an unit which is cut off from the HQ can be doubled when it couldn't even get supplied by the HQ... I don't think that's meant by range in this rule. Sounds ridiculous to me...

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Radio waves care nothing about ZoC's [:D]

Maybe so, but transporting large quantities of supplies and replacements needed for a major
offensive do care. [:D]

This f.e. could mean that an unit which is cut off from the HQ can be doubled when it couldn't even get supplied by the HQ... I don't think that's meant by range in this rule. Sounds ridiculous to me...

That is exactly what the rule means. The HQ does not even have to be on the same continent as the unit it is doubling. Eisenhower in Tunisia can double American units invading Sicily. and in Portsmouth he can double American units in Normandy. These examples show why the rule is written the way it is: so that the Allies can use an O-chit in an amphibious invasion, and not have a flipped HQ in the invasion hex.

[WarHunter]

To get back on topic.

Will this be placed on the "to fix List"?

Especially as has been pointed out the ability to overrun the 4-1 garrison is impossible to do no matter how you slice it.

[WarHunter]

After using Orm's suggestion about forcing a land move using <ctrl> left click hold the button down.

Was able to do the double overrun. Thanks to Orm for engaging me in friendly discussion. He deserves the credit.

There are still lingering questions.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

After using Orm's suggestion about forcing a land move using <ctrl> left click hold the button down.

Was able to do the double overrun. Thanks to Orm for engaging me in friendly discussion. He deserves the credit.

There are still lingering questions.

I'm not sure what the "lingering questions" are. For now none of this has made it to my task list as a bug to be fixed.

[Zorachus99]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

After using Orm's suggestion about forcing a land move using <ctrl> left click hold the button down.

Was able to do the double overrun. Thanks to Orm for engaging me in friendly discussion. He deserves the credit.

There are still lingering questions.

I'm not sure what the "lingering questions" are. For now none of this has made it to my task list as a bug to be fixed.

Awesome response. "None of this has made it to my task list."

Great, don't fix your game, ignore an obviously reproducible bug.

Clearly you didn't try this save, as it is IMPOSSIBLE to overrun correctly. Whatever Warhunter posted did not include any instructions, while my post was incredibly clear in the problem, while at the same time explaining how to reproduce it.

There has at no time been explained how to double units twice. At no time have 4 offensive points been spent for two overruns. The entire overrun sequence is buggy, if you try this save several times you will get erroneous results, with different stacks, where sometimes you can overrun with a stack and sometimes you can't.

Clearly you don't need either isolated supply to work or overruns to play this game?

Screw it. I wasted my time reinstalling just to report a reproducible and important bug.

Go ahead and close this as a non-issue. No explanation on how to actually do the move; just not an issue.

I literally feel that after spending $100+ on this electronic game, that I'm never going to even get it to work in solitaire mode, which is rather disappointing.

I guess I'm going to write a support ticket for a refund; not because I expect one, but to convey a message that this game is broken, the RAC is poorly documented, the books are inaccurate, and the explanations on how to actually do legal moves DO NOT EXIST, and have been dismissed by the developer.

Thanks!

[WarHunter]

First off. This thread was created because of the trouble attempting to overrun 2 hexes with 1 stack of units.
Tried many times and could not do it.
So i created a thread called "Overrun Poland Test", to engage more players in the discussion.

tm.asp?m=3666690


Lots of people read and followed the discussion. Make it a go to thread to educate yourself about in game overruns issues.
It clearly shows the weak way with how overruns are handled in the game.

Its not player friendly. The use of <ctrl> left click,
is not a well known documented way to accomplish multiple overruns.

The most buggy part of using <ctrl> left click to do overruns.
Not all units need to use it. As was pointed out in the thread.

The test was done using the 2D10 CRT.
The lingering question and what is buggy is highlighted in red.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Lets do a recap of what we have learned in this thread.

1. Its possible to do multiple overruns with a single unit, or stack of units.
2. The use of "<ctrl> left click" is a useful command to get multiple overruns to work.
3. Not all units used to do an overrun need to use the command "<ctrl> left click".
(This needs to be looked into as it looks to be a bug.)
4. If using the 2D10 CRT you need a +16. Its easier to overrun a Corp/Army than a Division.
5. Polish units on the coast of Poland can be supplied by the CW.

Did i miss anything?

On number 4 I'd add: "if both are disorganized and OOS and the corps is not a white print (elite) unit"

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

First off. This thread was created because of the trouble attempting to overrun 2 hexes with 1 stack of units.
Tried many times and could not do it.
So i created a thread called "Overrun Poland Test", to engage more players in the discussion.

tm.asp?m=3666690


Lots of people read and followed the discussion. Make it a go to thread to educate yourself about in game overruns issues.
It clearly shows the weak way with how overruns are handled in the game.

Its not player friendly. The use of <ctrl> left click,
is not a well known documented way to accomplish multiple overruns.

The most buggy part of using <ctrl> left click to do overruns.
Not all units need to use it. As was pointed out in the thread.

The test was done using the 2D10 CRT.
The lingering question and what is buggy is highlighted in red.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarHunter

Lets do a recap of what we have learned in this thread.

1. Its possible to do multiple overruns with a single unit, or stack of units.
2. The use of "<ctrl> left click" is a useful command to get multiple overruns to work.
3. Not all units used to do an overrun need to use the command "<ctrl> left click".
(This needs to be looked into as it looks to be a bug.)
4. If using the 2D10 CRT you need a +16. Its easier to overrun a Corp/Army than a Division.
5. Polish units on the coast of Poland can be supplied by the CW.

Did i miss anything?

On number 4 I'd add: "if both are disorganized and OOS and the corps is not a white print (elite) unit"

The Players Manual volume 1, Section 8.4.5.2 Land Movement, subsection Partial Movement and Overruns, mentions the oddity of sometimes needing to use Ctrl-Left-Click to conduct overruns. It also explains why.

---

The player interface has the burden of needing to implement all the rules, in one way or another. Try as we might, there were instances when the rules so restrict what can and cannot happen, that the mouse and keyboard commands are not as simple and intuitive as we would like.[:(] Communicating all that to the player is extremely difficult. Two paragraphs in a 3 volume set containing 700+ pages covers the ground, but reading all that text and remembering it is nearly impossible.

My suggestion for when someone encounters a problem with a rule/decision/action, is for them to open the PDF and search for a key word - cycling through all the occurrences. That's what I did here, searching for Overrun.

[WarHunter]

In this sea of words issued forth from all sides. There remains a simple fact.
The overrun routine needs to be looked at.
Why?

Because in game the 8-5 armor can do multipule overruns without using the <ctrl> left click.
Yet the 7-6 armor needs to use the <ctrl> left click. Otherwise the 1st overrun it completes. Ends its movement completely. No chance to undo. It just ends.
As a player this is not consistent with regards to how the program should work.

Either we have to use <ctrl> left click for all overruns.
or
We do not use <ctrl> left click for all overruns.

If we do not have consistency. How are we to know when to use the command or not.

Will this be looked into?

Save game for the screenshot is in this thread, to see for yourself.
tm.asp?m=3666690

[paulderynck]

I just tried it. All by myself, I thought of the novel solution of using ctrl-left-click for every overrun move. It worked perfectly. The 7-6 overran the 5-3, 3-3, and 4-4 and stayed face-up. Then the 8-5 overran the 1-4 Div. I made sure to move it hex by hex (and again used ctrl-left-click for all moves), and it stayed face-up too, as it should. That left the 7-5 to slaughter the 4-3, which it did.

Try it. You'll like it.

With overruns it is often important (like it was in the given exercise) to do things in a specific order. Even across the board with another player, you usually take care to show just how it takes place. Regular land moves are less stringent, i.e. in fair weather if you move a unit two clear hexes and are happy with it being there, do you care if it used 2, 3 or 4 or more movement points? Not so with overruns. Thus it makes good sense that you would use ctrl-left-click for every such move, being careful to tell the computer: "I want this unit to move here, then here etc., and not have you decide for me, thanks very much."

The use of ctrl-left-click parallels the need to use it for naval moves when you want to enter sea zones with enemy units in them.

[Zorachus99]

You guys are absolutely fantastic. You have a save where you can overrun flipped out-of-supply units, worth 1 point in defense, therefore, I don't have a bug.

Where are the offensive points? Is my move legal? How can you spend 4 offensive points and double 4 units for two overuns?
Nothing answered. Warhunter gave no explanation of his apparent ability to overrun with the wrong stack. Genius.

Please, go ahead, test other saved games and ignore the one that DEFINITELY has a problem. After-all overrunning a 1 point unit is the same as overrunning a 4 point unit with an offensive chit!

I can see why Zartacla gave up.

Thanks for the non-help. There is still no way to use four offensive points.

You know what? My wall listens better.

[WarHunter]

Genius reporting as ordered.