Playable!

[AxelNL]

ORIGINAL: Twisted1

Hey AxelNL, what is your screen name on WoT? Mine is - otwistedone

As Bo and you are on the US servers, you will not find me within the game. I am on the European section. Name is similar to here, but add the number two.

Edit: I see you two are both much better than I!
Bo - you have played an impressive amount!

[jesperpehrson]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion
Waaa Waaaaaaa Waaaa

Maybe we have different perspectives. I have been waiting for this since 1998 and it is better than I could have ever dreamt. It is very close to what the boardgame feels.

Sure there are bugs and things I would like to be included, but at least I can finally play WIF on the computer. It is glorious and it is getting slowly towards perfection. Perhaps I can play via netplay with my friend before the end of the year.

[Dabrion]

ORIGINAL: capitan

ORIGINAL: Dabrion
Waaa Waaaaaaa Waaaa

MiMiMimimimimi

Here is a quiz for you: "Which part "feels" like the board game?" Uniform scale map? Bugs all over the place? Easy production interface? Joy of convoy routing? Dysfunctional supply in almost any place that is not the Ukraine or has a similar amount of connected clear hexes and is not impacted by over sea supply. The price? The books? The art style? The software engineering? Being drunk?

Honestly try to put a name on things and try to get clear with your feeling..


Let me add something else for your: Waaa Waaaaaaa Waaaa
Now you may quote me, thank you very much!

[paulderynck]

I never derived all that much joy out of convoy routing...

And I've had many opponents that tried to use dysfunctional supply to their benefit. [:)]

Seriously, the supply fixes have had a huge impact, there's a few bugs that snuck through, but the improvements have been outstanding. In my NetPlay playtesting we've found several situations where our first reaction was wrong and the game was right. Units that are OOS change to in-supply when you move HQs within range or run over enemy hexes that were interfering with the path.

Here's some things that are good in MWiF that playing over the board doesn't possess, often to the detriment of the playing experience: faithful tracking of hex control, regimented progression through the Sequence of Play, action limits that can't be accidentally exceeded, weather effects in all hexes/hexdots of the weather zones that aren't forgotten for some hex or some portion of an impulse, no 3600 counters to sort by year for literally hours so you can get ready for the next game (not to mention possibly lose some), unlimited (depending on your saves) reproducible "what-if we'd tried this instead that turn?", disrupted units and first cycle ships that do not magically undisrupt or advance one year in appearance...

That's all in addition to the space, pet, and significant other concerns that have already been mentioned repeatedly.

[gw15]

MWIF is a work of art.

[AxelNL]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

ORIGINAL: capitan

ORIGINAL: Dabrion
Waaa Waaaaaaa Waaaa

MiMiMimimimimi

Here is a quiz for you: "Which part "feels" like the board game?" Uniform scale map? Bugs all over the place? Easy production interface? Joy of convoy routing? Dysfunctional supply in almost any place that is not the Ukraine or has a similar amount of connected clear hexes and is not impacted by over sea supply. The price? The books? The art style? The software engineering? Being drunk?

Honestly try to put a name on things and try to get clear with your feeling..


Let me add something else for your: Waaa Waaaaaaa Waaaa
Now you may quote me, thank you very much!

Do you see perfection when you look into a mirror? If not - how can you live with yourself? If yes - when do you start to bring salvation for us all?

[Dabrion]

Answer: Because you don't deserve at all!

I dont want "perfection".. you know a wise man once pointed out it's an elusive goal.. I want "fit for purpose". Plain as that..
The day MWiF beats Vassal in terms of playability you will have an extra set of customers! To this day the sandbox approach of Vassal simple lets you "play more WiF" in the same time than you would have to spend on MWiF.
Turns(MwiF) per unit-time < Turns(BoardGame) per unit-time << Turns(Vassal) per unit-time

I play faster in the board game with first-timers than in MWiF with experienced players. Then look at the "bugs". They are not bugs per se.. they are all complications and uncovered special cases of attempts to "code the rules". To do that a restrictive approach was chosen, such that you may only take actions that are legal per the rules. That is a same as positively identifying all the legal cases and that suxx! This approach never works.. not in real life because you have to enforce it and it leads to police state mentalities, and not in a coding environment.. because a computer is the perfect police state already and you can't handle that! This is a fundamental design flaw.
To address that a mode where you are only warned on a perceived illegal action and where you can individually ignore shortcoming of the software, is an acceptable good workaround.

You are leap frogging towards covering all the special cases, I can see that and they are countable, yay..

Bottom line is: it is nice.. but I want my money back, because it sucks for the €150 I had to drop on it. Next year at equinox we plan to have a big fire and I will sacrifice the MWiF books if this doesnt get much better!

If you are currently contemplating purchase.. rather get some private time with a hooker or by something for your wifes/kids/ponies/cars/*insert here*.

[bo]

ORIGINAL: AxelNL

ORIGINAL: Twisted1

Hey AxelNL, what is your screen name on WoT? Mine is - otwistedone

As Bo and you are on the US servers, you will not find me within the game. I am on the European section. Name is similar to here, but add the number two.

Edit: I see you two are both much better than I!
Bo - you have played an impressive amount!

I play mostly with a Stug 111, love that little machine, it is a good sniper weapon, if I get into tier 7 game which seems like 9 out of 10 games, I have a lot of trouble, tier 6 heavies cremate me, I can hold my own in Tier 5 games, but heavies are still tough, I also use a grille artillery and I have Tiger 2 that my grandson uses, I personally don't like the Tiger 2 because there is always somebody a lot bigger than you are and it is very expensive to maintain.

I play a lot when I get frustrated with MWIF, please that is not a dig just the way it is, have not played in about 3 weeks.

Bo

[etsadler]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

To do that a restrictive approach was chosen, such that you may only take actions that are legal per the rules.

I'm not comprehending how being restricted to actions that are "legal per the rules" is a bad thing. Isn't following the rules, well, the normal way to play a game?

[etsadler]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

I play faster in the board game with first-timers than in MWiF with experienced players.

This I can agree with. Playing "in person" with the board game you can skip phases that are not needed. For instance if you are moving a ship through several sea zones and the non-phasing player doesn't want to intercept it moves a lot faster in person. Also things like returning air units from combat can be done at the same time in person.

I would, however, temper my agreement by saying that, in my experience, games with experienced players often take longer, because the experienced player is much more aware of all the nuanced play available to them, and may spend much longer planning and executing on those nuances than the novice that does not yet have that knowledge.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Dabrion

When it works one day in the far future.. it will be stuck on RAW7, and the cool kids will play RAW666. You don't want to hear it but this whole thing is headed for a train-wreck. You just cannot admit it.. So keep tinkering and have fun if you can

warspite1

Wrong....as usual.

It does not matter that it will be "stuck" on RAW7. It will be a WIF game for the computer that uses RAW7 as its base. So what?
Who is to say RAW666 will be better? Not all changes ADG have incorporated are for the better.

I continued playing Civ II after Civ III came out, I bought, but do not touch Civ V (I wonder if I can get a refund?) I still prefer Civ IV. Newer isn't always better.

You don't want to hear it but this whole thing is headed for a train-wreck.

Okay, if you believe that, why not quit trolling and go do something useful with your life and stop boring the pants off everyone?

Bottom line is: it is nice.. but I want my money back, because it sucks for the €150 I had to drop on it. Next year at equinox we plan to have a big fire and I will sacrifice the MWiF books if this doesnt get much better!

There's a comment I could make here - but despite the fact that you have been distinctly unpleasant to people on this forum in the past - I won't make it.

However, if you want to make yourself useful - how about you send the books to me instead. That way I can have a copy to use and a copy to sit on my book shelf in pristine condition.

[brian brian]

As for playing time, all gamers are different. I love World in Flames because it introduced me to Fractional Odds. Factor perfect maximizers, go away.

But I too play WiF without MWiF pretty fast. I was pretty surprised to read in an AAR that the game stops every time a ship enters a 0 box in a sea zone, and this can't be turned off in advance. Tonight I talked it over with my usual face-to-face opponent, who told me the game also stops for each nation that has a unit in the sea zone. So when 20 Royal Navy ships leave Gibraltar to patrol the West Med but the Italians have a cruiser out there and the Germans have a fighter but the Axis have no other aircraft in range, the game stops twice to ask the Germans and ask the Italians if they want to intercept, before the RN task force can move up to the 3 box. This never happens in 3D play. It is correct rules procedure, sure, but the game will need standing orders to speed up play. Super-Deluxe World in Flames features one heck of a lot of counters on the board in 1944, and every little thing will help keep games going. Too slow games will be abandoned.

I look forward to playing it, having the program enforce the rules and keep inadvertent errors from happening will be great. But I still can't believe that the first thing created wasn't a simple counter management mode so I could use the beautiful new maps and counters however I want, and give money to Matrix and ADG for that. Instead, I use a freeware program to do that, and buy new cardboard from ADG.

And until the AI Convoy Routing is just optional, I don't plan to play it. I am in the Commander-in-Chief, and I choose what my convoys carry. Exploring how the Allies can help each other is a major portion of the game. Isolated Re-Org and Guards Banner Armies are pretty important too.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

IMO if the game needs Skype, it's not playable (at least as intended to be). For me it's not.

Hi Jose, I just downloaded skype for more testing doing net play and it is a wonderful tool, before when I would test with Cad we would have to type out instructions to each other but now we can communicate like we were in the same room together. I have a cheap headset with a mic, cost about 12 to 15 dollars US or you can go go hog wild with some of the headsets for 200 or 300 US dollars[:-]

When net play gets finished skype will be a must for better enjoyment of the game the only problem with skype is that you can not hand a beer to your opponent through skype, sorry![:D]

Bo

Bo, I have been using Skype for like 5 or more years, maybe 8 or 10... It is a wonderful tool, indeed.

Problem are;

1 - The game was supposed not to have need of this aides.
2 - You cannot lift the counters of your opponent to see the lower unists in the stacks. For this you need Team Viewer or similar, and security should be an issue.

[joshuamnave]

You honestly think the game is playable in its current condition?

Let's see - once again, the game is not recognizing allied CP's for delivering supply (or I should say it's doing it sporadically, but the only common denominator I can find is that supply is being traced through allied CP's). Try running Operation Torch when the US and the UK need their own separate supply lines. Playable? Sure, in the sense that the game doesn't crash, but not in the sense that it works close enough to intended to serve its purpose.

Try loading units onto ships moving through ports.

Try declaring war on a minor country that was conquered by a major power that has itself been conquered. In my current game China conquered French Indo China after Japan demanded it from the Vichy government. On the next turn, Japan conquered China and now FIC is permanently neutral. Playable? Sure, it didn't crash the game. Playable in the way it's intended to be played? No.

Try setting up pickets to intercept ships that are aborting from a sea zone (either aborting from combat, or returning home at the end of the turn) or units that have been overrun and forced to rebase. That will often crash the game. Playable? Only if you voluntarily choose not to play that part of the naval war.

Try setting up your convoy chains and getting the resources to route the way you want them to. But hey, it's apparently not a bug if resources go from cape verde to central atlantic and then to the bay of biscay instead of just going straight from CV to BoB. The problem, you see, is that I'm just not smart enough to figure out the easy to use, user friendly production planning form. Playable? I suppose. Fun? Not hardly.

Try making a blitz attack or using engineers in an attack or using winterized units in an attack, then ignoring the prompt to destroy the armor/eng/winterized unit as the first combat loss. Sure, you can self enforce it, but isn't the value of MWiF over Vassal supposed to be the software enforcing the rules for us?

Try starting a netplay game. For anyone who bought the game primarily for netplay, based on the promise made on release day that Netplay would be working soon, it's definitely not playable.

I think the comparison Warspite made to Civ V was a good one. Civ V is a great game - but only if you've never played Civ I-IV. MWiF is a great game, but only if you've never played it live and don't know the rules as they are supposed to be coded. I can see how someone with little or no WiF experience prior to MWiF would rave about what a great game it is, but that's not me.

Right now MWiF is like buying a new car only to find that the radio works only intermittently, the air conditioner doesn't work at all, and the electric window controls have been replaced with manual cranks. But it's driveable!

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

IMO if the game needs Skype, it's not playable (at least as intended to be). For me it's not.

Hi Jose, I just downloaded skype for more testing doing net play and it is a wonderful tool, before when I would test with Cad we would have to type out instructions to each other but now we can communicate like we were in the same room together. I have a cheap headset with a mic, cost about 12 to 15 dollars US or you can go go hog wild with some of the headsets for 200 or 300 US dollars[:-]

When net play gets finished skype will be a must for better enjoyment of the game the only problem with skype is that you can not hand a beer to your opponent through skype, sorry![:D]

Bo

Bo, I have been using Skype for like 5 or more years, maybe 8 or 10... It is a wonderful tool, indeed.

Problem are;

1 - The game was supposed not to have need of this aides.
2 - You cannot lift the counters of your opponent to see the lower unists in the stacks. For this you need Team Viewer or similar, and security should be an issue.

Very good Jose it is me who is about 10 light years behind everyone, the reason I downloaded skype was not to play Mwif in net play but to test net play with a few of the beta testers where we could talk to each other rather than type out instructions. If you want put me on your skype contact and we could discuss this, my e-mail is [bowenw1@verizon.net] of course only if you want to[:(]

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Zartacla

You honestly think the game is playable in its current condition?

Let's see - once again, the game is not recognizing allied CP's for delivering supply (or I should say it's doing it sporadically, but the only common denominator I can find is that supply is being traced through allied CP's). Try running Operation Torch when the US and the UK need their own separate supply lines. Playable? Sure, in the sense that the game doesn't crash, but not in the sense that it works close enough to intended to serve its purpose.

Try loading units onto ships moving through ports.

Try declaring war on a minor country that was conquered by a major power that has itself been conquered. In my current game China conquered French Indo China after Japan demanded it from the Vichy government. On the next turn, Japan conquered China and now FIC is permanently neutral. Playable? Sure, it didn't crash the game. Playable in the way it's intended to be played? No.

Try setting up pickets to intercept ships that are aborting from a sea zone (either aborting from combat, or returning home at the end of the turn) or units that have been overrun and forced to rebase. That will often crash the game. Playable? Only if you voluntarily choose not to play that part of the naval war.

Try setting up your convoy chains and getting the resources to route the way you want them to. But hey, it's apparently not a bug if resources go from cape verde to central atlantic and then to the bay of biscay instead of just going straight from CV to BoB. The problem, you see, is that I'm just not smart enough to figure out the easy to use, user friendly production planning form. Playable? I suppose. Fun? Not hardly.

Try making a blitz attack or using engineers in an attack or using winterized units in an attack, then ignoring the prompt to destroy the armor/eng/winterized unit as the first combat loss. Sure, you can self enforce it, but isn't the value of MWiF over Vassal supposed to be the software enforcing the rules for us?

Try starting a netplay game. For anyone who bought the game primarily for netplay, based on the promise made on release day that Netplay would be working soon, it's definitely not playable.

I think the comparison Warspite made to Civ V was a good one. Civ V is a great game - but only if you've never played Civ I-IV. MWiF is a great game, but only if you've never played it live and don't know the rules as they are supposed to be coded. I can see how someone with little or no WiF experience prior to MWiF would rave about what a great game it is, but that's not me.

Right now MWiF is like buying a new car only to find that the radio works only intermittently, the air conditioner doesn't work at all, and the electric window controls have been replaced with manual cranks. But it's driveable!

My dear Zar

I personally agree with most of your comments and I could see where a new person would feel the game is playing very well and we all know it needs more fixing in all areas, the beta testers [volunteers without pay Zar, and if you do not like that word then ask the Matrix powers that be, to get professional help, not my call][:(] feel the same way IMO and they all want this game to come to fruition ASAP.

I do understand that if I paid good money like others here including you and Dabrion I personally would not be a happy camper [:(] When some beta people here suggested that you might consider coming to the inside [beta tester] helping us test the game with your knowledge of the game your answer was I did not buy the game to be a tester, IMHO that is the correct answer and I commend you for that as I would not have thought of a good answer like that.

I cannot speak for Matrix or Steve or even the other beta testers, I am speaking from the heart here, I tease sometimes and joke on the forums but when it is a serious situation like now I do not BS anyone not my bag. Come into the beta testing but that is not my call to ask you in. OR!

Go on and keep complaining which is your right to do so and I respect that, or go on like Dabrion wanting a refund and I respect his opinions also, well most of them [:(]] or put your feelings in your old kit bag [my mothers saying many years ago, and it was a song] pull up your britches and maybe just maybe yours and Dabrions knowledge of the game would be of tremendous assistance to Steve if he feels he needs it, his call. Not looking for an argument Zar its just I would like to play this game with net play and the AI in my lifetime, WITH or WITHOUT yours and Dabrions assistance.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

IMO if the game needs Skype, it's not playable (at least as intended to be). For me it's not.

Hi Jose, I just downloaded skype for more testing doing net play and it is a wonderful tool, before when I would test with Cad we would have to type out instructions to each other but now we can communicate like we were in the same room together. I have a cheap headset with a mic, cost about 12 to 15 dollars US or you can go go hog wild with some of the headsets for 200 or 300 US dollars[:-]

When net play gets finished skype will be a must for better enjoyment of the game the only problem with skype is that you can not hand a beer to your opponent through skype, sorry![:D]

Bo

Bo, I have been using Skype for like 5 or more years, maybe 8 or 10... It is a wonderful tool, indeed.

Problem are;

1 - The game was supposed not to have need of this aides.
2 - You cannot lift the counters of your opponent to see the lower unists in the stacks. For this you need Team Viewer or similar, and security should be an issue.

Jose I am afraid I do not understand what you are saying [par for me[:(]] Skype is not an aid for the game of MWIF, IMO, I do not have a cam with skype I was referring to be able to talk to each other while playing net play, as far as you examining stacks of naval units of your enemy isn't that what the Naval Review Details Screen is for?

Bo

[Grotius]

Zartacia, the game is quite playable for me, even given the issues you cite. My current game is in December 1940, and I've had a blast with it. The most annoying bug so far hasn't been anything you listed, but rather the tendency of the air-to-air form to lose focus, requiring me to reload the phase using an autosave. Irritating, but it hardly makes the game unplayable.

Most of the problems you cite -- convoys, pickets, transports, blitz/engineers, even supply -- can be worked around. Annoying, but not a big deal to me. The declaration of war issue is more serious, but even that doesn't stop me from enjoying the game. I'll concede that Netplay isn't playable, but I'm personally not interested in Netplay. For that reason, I indeed can honestly answer your question "yes, it's playable for me."

That said, I do fall into the category of a WIF newb, so maybe that's why I love MWIF and you don't. There's just no way I'd ever get through a solitaire game on Vassal. I love learning wargame rules as much as the next person, but for whatever reason, I've never had the patience do to that while using Vassal. MWIF enforces the rules for me, or at least 99% of the rules. For me, that's the difference between playing and not.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Bo, I have been using Skype for like 5 or more years, maybe 8 or 10... It is a wonderful tool, indeed.

Problem are;

1 - The game was supposed not to have need of this aides.
2 - You cannot lift the counters of your opponent to see the lower unists in the stacks. For this you need Team Viewer or similar, and security should be an issue.

I have yet to play a game online without Skype and indeed any online game plus Skype is close to 80% of the FTF playing experience. It's hard to imagine playing interactively online without Skype or a tool like it.

1. NetPlay does have a chat ability, but really, who'll bother with the tedious typing?
2. NetPlay provides all the same command functions as for Solitaire.

So it seems you are complaining about things you can't do when trying to play Hot Seat online and those complaints will not be applicable to NetPlay once the bugs in it are solved.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

ORIGINAL: bo




Hi Jose, I just downloaded skype for more testing doing net play and it is a wonderful tool, before when I would test with Cad we would have to type out instructions to each other but now we can communicate like we were in the same room together. I have a cheap headset with a mic, cost about 12 to 15 dollars US or you can go go hog wild with some of the headsets for 200 or 300 US dollars[:-]

When net play gets finished skype will be a must for better enjoyment of the game the only problem with skype is that you can not hand a beer to your opponent through skype, sorry![:D]

Bo

Bo, I have been using Skype for like 5 or more years, maybe 8 or 10... It is a wonderful tool, indeed.

Problem are;

1 - The game was supposed not to have need of this aides.
2 - You cannot lift the counters of your opponent to see the lower unists in the stacks. For this you need Team Viewer or similar, and security should be an issue.

Very good Jose it is me who is about 10 light years behind everyone, the reason I downloaded skype was not to play Mwif in net play but to test net play with a few of the beta testers where we could talk to each other rather than type out instructions. If you want put me on your skype contact and we could discuss this, my e-mail is [bowenw1@verizon.net] of course only if you want to[:(]

Bo

Will do, Bo. I just saw the post and I am at work now, not at home, so ... later. [:)]