AI still coming?

[chemkid]

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[warspite1]

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[Centuur]

Since the programmer started this because of the fact that he wants to build an AI for this game, it's going to be build someday...

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

bo,
After playing the AI some in Kharkov I found that AI stands for Annoying Ignorance. They had to allow their AI to cheat by things like allowing surrounded AI units to take replacements when a human in the same situation can't. My next game of Kharkov will be solitaire. No worry about when my opponent can play and no worry about cheating or stupid moves.

Omnius

No argument Omnius about how tough it is to do an AI, in all the last 10 years with all the computer improvement no one can seem to make a good AI its really a shame. But IMO the net play is going to be one big headache in time zone playing, and looking at a very small section of the map, you know people it wont be like the board game where you see every move, no one has explained to me yet how you will know where your opponent made his every move.

You probably will have to take a long time looking over the map to see all the moves, can any one estimate how long a netplay move might take, and how many net play games are on the market? Must be a reason why so few if any.

Would it be wonderful to have a good reliable netplay program, damn right, but I do not see it happening for the foreseeable future.

Just did some checking, of the 245 games listed for sale on the Matrix Game sales there are 245 AI's over 200 PBEM or more and 000000 net plays why. I did not check all 245 games for netplay just the first 50[;)] I am not trying to be negative but if something does not look right does not smell right and you know the old one walks like a duck etc. I am not against a good net play it is just not for me. I do not believe any programer worth his salts would even attempt it, nothing against Steve for trying.

I have tested netplay over a year ago and if it would ever work it might be a good way to play, it's a waiting game right now while Steve works on it.

Last thing from me, take away Matrix's AI's on there 245 games and what do you have solitaire, and PBEM, and boy that would sink the company, and we need Matrix.

Bo

[warspite1]

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[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: Omnius

bo,
After playing the AI some in Kharkov I found that AI stands for Annoying Ignorance. They had to allow their AI to cheat by things like allowing surrounded AI units to take replacements when a human in the same situation can't. My next game of Kharkov will be solitaire. No worry about when my opponent can play and no worry about cheating or stupid moves.

Omnius

No argument Omnius about how tough it is to do an AI, in all the last 10 years with all the computer improvement no one can seem to make a good AI its really a shame. But IMO the net play is going to be one big headache in time zone playing, and looking at a very small section of the map, you know people it wont be like the board game where you see every move, no one has explained to me yet how you will know where your opponent made his every move.

You probably will have to take a long time looking over the map to see all the moves, can any one estimate how long a netplay move might take, and how many net play games are on the market? Must be a reason why so few if any.

Would it be wonderful to have a good reliable netplay program, damn right, but I do not see it happening for the foreseeable future.

Just did some checking, of the 245 games listed for sale on the Matrix Game sales there are 245 AI's over 200 PBEM or more and 000000 net plays why. I did not check all 245 games for netplay just the first 50[;)] I am not trying to be negative but if something does not look right does not smell right and you know the old one walks like a duck etc. I am not against a good net play it is just not for me. I do not believe any programer worth his salts would even attempt it, nothing against Steve for trying.

I have tested netplay over a year ago and if it would ever work it might be a good way to play, it's a waiting game right now while Steve works on it.

Last thing from me, take away Matrix's AI's on there 245 games and what do you have solitaire, and PBEM, and boy that would sink the company, and we need Matrix.

Bo

I am glad that with my friends and co-forum members, I am within such a bunch of fine strategists.

I find the AI of CIV5 unbeatable in the higher levels, unless you find a rare exploit and use it all the time.

The same I could tell of AGEOD games, specially BoA2 and the Birth of Rome series, but all in truth. Or Shogun Total War in the higher levels.

I wonder if AI are in truth not way over the strategists level, and it's more a matter of boasting on how intelligent one is, while in truth we only win if there is a loose end in the programming, not strictly due to AI many times, like in the RTW sometimes the armies in a certain point (solved later) simply didn't siege the ciies, just sat still outside them.

Without those occasional bugs people simply got kick-aseed. Another matter is what people says.

[76mm]

It's useless to call an AI unbeatable unless the AI is not cheating...I don't play any of the games you mention--really the AI doesn't cheat at the "higher levels"?

[Joseignacio]

To be true, I cannot know.

I have serious hints that CIV 5 does, like having cheaper costs for units and maintenance.

BUT

When you see how the AI always spots your weaker point and attacks there (even if sometimes you hadn't realized it was a weak point yourself) and then the following area critical for VPs or where your damaged units are recovering, or where you are building units and they are extremely vulnerable, or blocking you units in wilderness areas so that weather takes its (huge) toll, ...

... you cannot say it's not a challenge. At least I don't.

BTW I was meaning STW2.

[76mm]

Yeah, but just because an AI is challenging doesn't mean that it is intelligent--cheating in any number of ways can give it huge advantages; increased production, increased unit strength, no FoW, ease of alliances with other AI players, etc. can make it very difficult to play against an AI, even it is not very smart.

Many wargame AIs don't cheat in these ways, and for that reason they are often not very challenging...

[warspite1]

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[76mm]

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[bo]

Jose, I have never played any of those games as I am not interested in anything but world war 2 and maybe the American civil war {never saw a real good game yet}

I mentioned before that SC had a decent AI attacking Russia until I came up with a solution [a gimmick] to stop the AI but in the Pacific the AI did a very poor job.

Someday someone will solve this, but I doubt in my lifetime, [:(] If someone could replicate a chess game AI, WOW! Of course we know that the AI of a chess game has to deal with a mere 64 hexes instead of thousands of hexes. But I always found it interesting how easily the AI could beat you on a level 6 or 7.

I like what Neilster said, the AI only has to be competent, I remember one of the very good war games 3RD Reich, in the beginning of the game it was more than adequate but as the game wore on and the game spread out into Russia and such, it lost it's way and made very bad decisions, a shame because it was a very good beer and pretzel game.

I also agree with Brian Brian about Barbarossa and the AI, I believe Steve can do a very good AI for that scenario, maybe for Guadalcanal, the Pacific and its scope might be very difficult to deal with. I still think we are spending too much time on a form of game play [netplay] that maybe only a few
dedicated board game player would use as compared to the thousands that might like an adequate AI [hopefully adequate]

I still think MWIF is beautifully done IMHO, graphics, interface,, but right now it is an empty shell solitaire game without netplay, the AI, the two half maps etc. If I sound negative sometimes then OH well! There is no one here more interested in seeing this game finished than I am.

Bo

[bo]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

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+ 1, sorry warspite if your not feeling well [:(] loss of words is a bad thing [:D]

Bo

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: 76mm

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+ 1, sorry warspite if your not feeling well [:(] loss of words is a bad thing [:D]

Bo

warspite1

It gets on my nerves when thread titles are changed. I see a new post and from the title assume its a new subject - only to find...it's not. Really cheeses me off. So I put it right [:)]

Rant over .... move along nothing to see [:)]

[Cataphract88]

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: 76mm

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+ 1, sorry warspite if your not feeling well [:(] loss of words is a bad thing [:D]

Bo

Perhaps it was a 'moot point' that Warspite was making.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: cataphract88

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: 76mm

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+ 1, sorry warspite if your not feeling well [:(] loss of words is a bad thing [:D]

Bo

Perhaps it was a 'moot point' that Warspite was making.

warspite1

I suspect to most people it was. Irritates the hell out of me though....[:@]

[LeeChard]

When I bought this game it was with the understanding that an AI would be included eventually. I play solitaire
almost exclusively. I put my money in to help support the project. If the plans for an AI are scrapped I will be
more than a little disappointed.

[Joseignacio]

To be true, I didn't see them say there will be no AI, just, AFTER clearing bugs in the game itself, AFTER clearing bugs in the MP, and AFTER PBEM. Then they will work the AI which could take about 1 year (hopefully) or who-knows-how-much considering how the game is evolving.

So, if you can wait some years you may be satisfied. [;)][:'(]

[LeeChard]

It was Erik's post in which he said "we'll look at adding AI" that got me a little worried.
Patience is not a problem I can wait, but I would like to see the 'Fascist Tide' and 'Day of Infamy'
scenarios completed to help pass the time [:D]

[bo]

ORIGINAL: Ranger5355

It was Erik's post in which he said "we'll look at adding AI" that got me a little worried.
Patience is not a problem I can wait, but I would like to see the 'Fascist Tide' and 'Day of Infamy'
scenarios completed to help pass the time [:D]

Hi Ranger, I can see that what Erik said could be construed as to "were thinking about an AI", but IMO as a WIF beta tester the AI will be done someday, I have heard that this is one of Steve's favorite projects, the AI. I just do not think Erik want's to commit when, until we get this netplay up and running. Fascist Tide is what I beta test along with Guadalcanal. Fascist tide plays very well and I rarely see any problems if ever but if I am not mistaken there is a few issues with the naval aspect and some production problems.

I am not a programmer [:(] [just learned how to use skype] and sometimes I dread computers, so I cannot speak for Steve but after netplay is up and running I believe without any confirmation from Steve that the half maps will be put into the game. For players who dread Global war because of all the countries involved and all the many more decisions that have to be made, Fascist Tide will be a godsend for many players.

You will like Fascist Tide which starts in Sept. 1939 to 1945 even though you can stretch the game a little longer, Fascist Tide is mostly a ground war with of course naval aspects to it but Day of Infamy is mostly naval as you well know if you play Global War all the time, but it will be nice if you only have to concentrate on The Pacific War or the European war at one time.

If you have any other questions I will try to answer them.

Bo