Australian I Corps

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el cid again
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by el cid again »

I assign units to I corps WITHOUT having it arrive early. This was done with many other Allied commands and
works fairly well (except you cannot get corps support until it is around to support you!). It is not necessary
to have it arrive ahistorically. Also - Aussie units can be assigned to other commands - and won't lose the
ability to reassign to I Corps later. Curiously - the formation was originally called 1 Corps - and ended up using
both names at least in conversation.

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I Corps is wrong I knew than when it was done but at the time HQ slots 1 - 275 caused major AI issues if we messed about with them so have a single Corps HQ arriving 2 months early was a small price to pay.

As Jeff pointed out the rest of the Aus OOB when you get down to micro level has a number of units starting in the wrong bases.

As Matt points out sometimes you need to compromise to get a workable compromise within the gaming system.

The OOB for Australia was not perfect units tend to be in the right part of the country but sometimes start int h wrong base and the sub units I chose to represent are not always the ones others would have chosen but no one has came back and said the combat capablity of the Australian Army is fundamentally wrong and at a theatre level the distribution of force between East/West/North and South Australia is broadly correct on 7/12/41 but I accept individual unts may not always be in the correct starting base within those regions sometimes that was for AI reason (South Australia) and sometimes because I had conflicting sources and had to do the best I could

In my defence I was not the Australian Army expert and had to do what I could when our Aussie Army expert had to pull out from the project. - I was brought into AE to do the BRITISH INDIAN ARMY everything else that I got involved in was because others pulled out by the end I was doing a fair bit !!!!
Ian R
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by Ian R »

no one has came back and said the combat capablity of the Australian Army is fundamentally wrong
And they are very strong. I think they are a good compromise. Strong enought to halt japanese invasions at 1942 but not too strong to make "minipanzer divisions" to storm the japanese front.

Here, gentlemen, we are going to have to disagree. The mechanised combat capability of the Australian Army on the continent, opposing an IJ invasion in 42/43, is significantly undervalued. It is correct that in late 1942, when no IJ landing eventuated, the AMF began to reduce its level of motorisation (from the "8th Army" TOE), transitioned its expeditionary infantry units to a lighter jungle/mountain air-portable TOE, and broke up the large armoured formations that were, by then, unneccesary and not appropriate for the SWPAC campaigns. However, the current game OOB fixes it with this task based TOE evolution ab initio.

First, the three armoured divisions, when formed, and fitted out with US sourced M3 Grant & Stuart tanks over the course of March - October '42, were, in fact, not "mini" panzer divisions but the full equivalent - with more medium tanks. 1 recon, three cruiser tank, 1 mech infantry, three motor infantry, artillery, a/t, etc battalions. They were based on the UK late 42 balanced armoured division TOE, which, to be fair, was copied from the Germans, and which evolved in the field to include battle-group combined arms pairings, of which the Irish Guards battle group are perhaps the most well known example.

Secondly, the somewhat ad-hoc mechanisation of the AMF cavalry units that had begun prior to the Pacific war accelerated following American entry as a belligerent. What had been a trickle of money, and vehicles, became a torrent.

Thirdly, with the facilities available in the simulation to provide evolving TOE, and withdrawal "type 2" accompanied by fresh reinforcements, it is possible to adequately simulate this, and manpower drawdowns - albeit still suffering from locking the allies to history, while the IJ player is free to develop the war in non- historical ways.

Fourthly, the device database should enable the scenario designer to include an AU-M3 Grant, and an AU-M3 Stuart, with monthly arrival rates set, with an end date, to reasonably accurately depict Lend Lease tank deliveries.

Fifthly, taken together, this ought to result in something along the following lines:

As at 7/12/41:

One -

1st Armoured division AIF is extant, has a siginificant complement of its infantry and supporting arms assigned, but has only 10 M3 Stuart tanks in inventory. The general plan for this unit was that it would be equipped with UK cruiser tanks in Egypt. It does not go to Egypt, but takes up deliveries of Grant & Stuart tanks instead. It also has a reasonable starting training level - senior personnel had been attached to UK armoured formations in the MTO to garner experience. As initially organised it had two armoured brigades and a support group, on the contemporary UK pattern - but as it filled out, one armoured brigade was detached to the 2nd division and replaced by motor infantry, also reflecting the UK TOE evolution.

This armoured division was intended for employment in the MTO; it was retained in Western Australia to react to any IJ landing. As such it should be perma restricted to Australia Command so it cannot be deployed offshore. It should be withdrawn, type 2, on 17 September 1943. The next day the 1st Armoured brigade should arrive with full toe (the infantry component being 'demobilised'), but should also be perma-locked to Australian HQ.


Two -

The 1st Cavalry division was extent at war-start, but had maybe two horsed regiments left - otherwise it was pretty much in evoloution to a motorised formation. In February 1942 it should have a TOE upgrade, and a name change, to 1st Motorised Division. Then later, in November 1942, it should have another TOE & name change to become 3rd Armoured division. It should be withdrawn, type 2, in October 1943.

Edit for clarity - this division should be perma-restricted to AU HQ.

Three:

The 2nd Cavalry division should also start on 7/12/41, and like the above unit have a TOE and name change to 2nd Armoured division in February 1942. Please note that the 6th Cavalry brigade became this formation's armoured brigade - 6 Cav was formed 1939, re-designated 6th Motorised in February 1942, and redesignated & re-rolled as 6 Armour brigade in about May. Ultimately, in early 1943, 2nd Armoured division was stood down, and 6th Armoured Brigade's HQ became the HQ 4th armoured brigade, an HQ used to administer sepatate amoured regiments deployed off-shore. This division should withdraw-type 2 in February 1943, and 4th Armoured brigade should arrive fully formed the next day.

Edit for clarity - this division should be perma-restricted to AU HQ. Also, it should get two TOE evolutions, to 2nd Motorised in Feb '42, and 2nd Armoured in May 1942, in step with the arrival of M3 Grant tanks from the US.


Lastly - 3rd Army tank brigade should appear in March 1942, also perma restricted, and be withdrawn/ type 1 in about September 1943.


The various independent armoured and tank regiments that did deploy off-shore wewre administered by 4th Armoured brigade, so the practical solution is to leave those separately as deployable units, while 4th Armoured Brigade is perma-restricted.


While the above evolution of the OOB continues to suffer from the 'hindsight' syndrome, at least the AMF will have its large armoured formations in the period 42/43 when an (historically impossible) IJ invasion might occur.

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DOCUP
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by DOCUP »

Interesting information here.
Andy Mac
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by Andy Mac »

OK back at my PC and I did a little bit of fact per the current Scen 1

1/42
Australian Cav/Mech/Arm forces represented in game by Indpt Ard Regts or Mech/Cabv Bdes

1 x A/C Bns
12 x Armoured Bns
4 x Motor Inf Bns
9 x Cav Bns
5 x MG Bns

So potentially 31 "Mech" Bns when sufficient tanks and other devices arrive to flesh them out.

1/43

4 x A/C Bns
15 x Armoured Bns
9 x Motor Inf Bns
0 x Cav Bns
3 x MG Bns

Same 31 Bn's but some re roled into Armoured/A/C Bns

1/44
2 x A/C Bns
12 x Armoured Bns
4 x Motor Inf Bns
0 x Cav Bns
1 x MG Bns

After the reductions in 2nd half of 43 reduced to 19 Bn equivalents mostly to transfer infantry to fill out other formations

1/45
2 x A/C Bns
9 x Armoured Bns
4 x Motor Inf Bns
0 x Cav Bns
1 x MG Bns

By 45 down to 16 Bn equivalents
Ian R
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by Ian R »

Andy, you need 12 motor infantry battalions as at 11/42 - 2/43. Whether they all completely fill out before they start disappearing is another matter; fairly soon after that they decided to dismantle 2nd Armoured division to fill out the other units, including the 'new' 4th Armoured brigade, which was really just the ultimate re-badging of 6th Cavalry Brigade.

The armoured divisions were more than the sum of their parts, putting an a/c regiment, 3 armoured regiments, and 4 motor regiments plus supporting arms and non combat elements into one place does not result in this: [*this is a bit quick and rough, and not meant to be definitive, but this paper Linky at page 95 says the armoured brigade had 170 tanks at war establishment]. I want this lot to pursue en masse as a combined arms force, as it was designed to do.

Image

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Ian R
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by Ian R »

ORIGINAL: US87891

I must be slacking because I only get 4 or less emails.

Having pretty little OOBs is a nice thing. However, folding the pretty little OOBs into the game system takes more than just listing times and dates and name changes into the OOB data files.

If you can make your OOB list functional, I would love to hear how to go about it. We have been fighting that bear in Babes for several years, now. Your input would be invaluable. If you have anything, PM me please.

Still watching, Mr Trevethen.

Matt

Hi Matt, happy new year.

The short answer to that is, yes I have.

If you would like the documentation, please send me an email address by PM.

Cheers.
"I am Alfred"
US87891
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by US87891 »

ORIGINAL: Ian R
Hi Matt, happy new year.

The short answer to that is, yes I have.

If you would like the documentation, please send me an email address by PM.

Cheers.
Hello Ian. Happy New Year to you, as well.

Sending a PM. Thanks. Can never have too much information.

Some of the things in our game system are portable to AE, particularly some of the TOE and OOB details. For Australia (and New Zealand), there is a smorgasbord of Bn (Regiment) level echelons that represent the major TOE progression pathways for units. The Light Horse, for example, has LH Cavalry (horse), LH MG, and LH Motor organizations, with appropriate unit TOEs (and pathways) selectable for each specific named unit, in the OOB, depending on the time frame.

Armor is substantially the same, with early units being in a ‘training’ configuration and evolving to their nominal status upon availability of suitable equipment. So armored regiments start with a bunch of scout cars/carriers and a couple Lloyds and move to Stuarts, Shermans, Lees, Churchills (as appropriate) as special convoys arrive from US/UK.

Echelons are defined by HQ units at the Brigade and Division level. Infantry, armor, artillery, ‘special’, battalions (regiments) are assigned to, and make up, brigade groups which are assigned to, and make up, divisions along with other div-level assets. Needless to say, both brigade groups and divisions are able to modify their content, switching component units in-and-out, at will.

No-brainer for smaller scenarios (6 months to 2 years) but impractical for the standard AE grand campaign.

Matt
Ian R
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by Ian R »

My mod has a mixture of that, where necessary, but aims to present things at the division or brigade level as far as practicable. Less widgets, less mouse clicks.

Email outbound.
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TulliusDetritus
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RE: Australian I Corps

Post by TulliusDetritus »

ORIGINAL: JeffK
Sid has his own rules [8D]

Indeed [:D] [:)]
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