Will it really cost that much?

[pasternakski]

Again, if you can "wait a few weeks or months," you're a shopper, not a wargamer.

[gus]

Originally posted by pasternakski
Again, if you can "wait a few weeks or months," you're a shopper, not a wargamer.

Oh now I see your point! Truly this is the most profound argument yet for adopting the WitP pricing model

-g

[TIMJOT]

A few weeks or months? Get real. You DID NOT get a $20-$30 discount in that short of time. Maybe a half year to a year later you could have gotten those prices. Heck I got WIR and PacWar and a bunch of other games in a Classic WargamesPack for $39, but that was about 10 years after their release.

So basically you are compareing apples to oranges. You may have a point if WitP still cost $70 dollars ten years from now, but since I doubt it will you have every right to wait the 5-10 years to get your bargain, while the rest of us enjoy the game.

[gus]

Originally posted by Culiacan Mexico
First you question why Matrix is charging $69.95 for War in the Pacific:

“I noticed that War in the Pacific has a future price tag of nearly eighty dollars! Is this true, and why? I consider forty dollars average price for a new game. I will pay fifty for a game, but only after pretty serious consideration.”

Then you imply that games never were priced at this level in the past:

“For those whose argument it is that you paid $60-80 US 10 fifteen years ago, all I can say is I am sorry that you got ripped off. The most I can ever remember paying for a game in that era was ~$40.00 US. During the 1980's and early 1990's I lived in NYC and SF, arguably the two most expensive cities in the USA. I bought virtually every SSI title going and to the best of my knowledge I never spent over $40.00 US for any of their games.”

You never said you were buying used or “end of stock” discounted games.


Is this correct so far?

Hi Culiacan

Actually no, the first quote you attribute to me was actually posted by mailer22, I believe, but is a valid point nonetheless.

Secondly, in one of my earlier posts on this thread I clearly state what I am implying;

I was not implying that they were bad games in general just that I believe you folks paid too much.

I also believe I conceded this point in a subsequent post so that we could move beyond this to the more salient points of the debate.

When and how I bought the games is simply not relevant to the argument. You would not make this argument with any other purchase so why is it relevant here?

Other than that you are 100% correct

Gus

[Culiacan Mexico]

Originally posted by gus
Hi Culiacan

Actually no, the first quote you attribute to me was actually posted by mailer22, I believe, but is a valid point nonetheless.

My apologies.

Secondly, in one of my earlier posts on this thread I clearly state what I am implying;…

Could you clarify? The impression I get is you just want the games at a cheap price “I am sorry that you got ripped off. The most I can ever remember paying for a game in that era was ~$40.00 US.”

I also believe I conceded this point in a subsequent post so that we could move beyond this to the more salient points of the debate.

This is in relation to the prices of war games in the past were high Gary Grigsby's Pacific War $79.95 and Gary Grigsby's War in Russia, $79.95. Yes?

When and how I bought the games is simply not relevant to the argument. You would not make this argument with any other purchase so why is it relevant here?

Actually it is… “I can't comment on exactly how elatic or inelastic this market is but given that I will not fork over $70.00 indicates that it is not completely inelastic.” If your position is, as it was in the past, to look for used or bargain basement games.


PS. "...to the more salient points of the debate." What debate? What points?

[gus]

Hi TIMJOT

A few questions for you;

Originally posted by TIMJOT
A few weeks or months? Get real. You DID NOT get a $20-$30 discount in that short of time. Maybe a half year to a year later you could have gotten those prices. Heck I got WIR and PacWar and a bunch of other games in a Classic WargamesPack for $39, but that was about 10 years after their release.

Did you enjoy these games any less because they were bundled? or because they were not brand spanking new? or that you did not spend $60.00 ot $70.00 per title.

The bottom line is the games are enjoyable regardless of when, where and how you aquire them. As long as they are legitimate purchases (non-pirated) then I think we actually have more in common than you think.

Originally posted by TIMJOT
So basically you are compareing apples to oranges. You may have a point if WitP still cost $70 dollars ten years from now, but since I doubt it will you have every right to wait the 5-10 years to get your bargain, while the rest of us enjoy the game.

I have no intention of waiting 5-10 years for WitP. You can bid for UV on EBay already at a 40% markdown from retail price.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1945856711

The same will be true for WitP so i will get my price eventually. All I will probably miss is the first few patches.

Gus

[Culiacan Mexico]

Originally posted by gus
I have no intention of waiting 5-10 years for WitP. You can bid for UV on EBay already at a 40% markdown from retail price.

The same will be true for WitP so i will get my price eventually. All I will probably miss is the first few patches.

Again, your post shows just one concern... getting games at the lowest price. Correct? This is 'the' concern?

[gus]

Originally posted by Culiacan Mexico
PS. "...to the more salient points of the debate." What debate? What points?

Hi again,

So let me summarize the various points that have been given in support of the new pricing model;

Once you read the AAR's you will just have to have it!

Wargaming is a niche market.

Huge scale of WitP requires that its price be higher than average.

Value Recieved Price/Time => $70.00/10 years == $0.02/day!!!!

I paid $80.00 in the 1980's so it is OK to charge that today.

Incredible Service and Support that Matrix provides.

UV/WitP is so big!

If you are wargamer then you can't be a shopper

You will have to wait years to get a $20-30 discount.

I believe I have adressed each and every one of these points in some detail. If I have omitted or misrepresented anyone's opinion or argument I apologize in advance.

Gus

[gus]

Originally posted by Culiacan Mexico
Again, your post shows just one concern... getting games at the lowest price. Correct? This is 'the' concern?

I would call my main concern fairness in pricing. WitP does not have to be $10.00 for me to buy it. $50.00 is a fair price given its legacy and the current state of the computer wargaming market as I know it today.

I pre-ordered UV when it first came out, so no I do not look immediately for the bargain, I look for value and at that price I consider it to be a good value! If it was $70.00 I would have considered it overpriced, even in hindsight. I use this same rationale for any purchase, if I feel that I am being overcharged I will take my business elsewhere.

If you want to devolve this converstation down to "I am a cheap bastard" that is your perogative but I am afraid that I will have to give it as much credence as I do the "shopper vs. wargamer" argument

Cheers

Gus

[Culiacan Mexico]

Originally posted by gus
Hi again,

So let me summarize the various points that have been given in support of the new pricing model;...

In my opinion...

The market for war games of this type is small... Quake 6 might sell a million copies, but War in the Pacific never will. ID makes a rather large percentage wise profit per unit verses what WitP will make. Of course Quake in all its version are not wargames, but the same business facts relate to war games; some have a bigger market. Panzer General sold 250,000…500,000…1 million copies while Pacwar even thou it is free doesn’t interest even half that amount. Agreed?

Profit margins on Advance – Grognard games are small.

There are minimum costs involved with developing and producing any game; and this cost must be cover by sales. If the cost to make a game is $500,000 and you sell 100,000 then you must charge more than $5 a game just to cover development (this doesn’t cover fixed cost, production, etc). It sales are only projected to be 20,000 games then the minimum price must be increased to $25. This are the facts SSI ran into: sales for the majority of the war games never exceeded sales of 50,000 units, while their AD&D Gold Box series routinely sold more than 250,000 copies. The profits on their AD&D license were very good.

Regarding WitP, this game is being developed by 2by3 games so the financial arrangements could be more complex than if it was developed and produced by Matrix. I have no idea what they project sales to be, but I would be surprise if they exceeded 10,000-20,000 (I hope they sell a million). This is going to reduce the profit per unit unless they increase the retail price.

Agreed so far?

[Culiacan Mexico]

Originally posted by gus
I would call my main concern fairness in pricing. WitP does not have to be $10.00 for me to buy it. $50.00 is a fair price given its legacy and the current state of the computer wargaming market as I know it today.

I pre-ordered UV when it first came out, so no I do not look immediately for the bargain, I look for value and at that price I consider it to be a good value! If it was $70.00 I would have considered it overpriced, even in hindsight. I use this same rationale for any purchase, if I feel that I am being overcharged I will take my business elsewhere.

If you want to devolve this converstation down to "I am a cheap bastard" that is your perogative but I am afraid that I will have to give it as much credence as I do the "shopper vs. wargamer" argument

Cheers

Gus

I don't feel, and I don't believe I either stated or impled, that getting a game for the best price is...'bad'.

[pasternakski]

Y'all seem to understand what "shopper" is. The meaning of "wargamer" seems to escape you.

[TIMJOT]

Originally posted by gus
Hi TIMJOT

A few questions for you;



Did you enjoy these games any less because they were bundled? or because they were not brand spanking new? or that you did not spend $60.00 ot $70.00 per title.

The bottom line is the games are enjoyable regardless of when, where and how you aquire them. As long as they are legitimate purchases (non-pirated) then I think we actually have more in common than you think.



I have no intention of waiting 5-10 years for WitP. You can bid for UV on EBay already at a 40% markdown from retail price.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 1945856711

The same will be true for WitP so i will get my price eventually. All I will probably miss is the first few patches.

Gus

Hi Gus

My only point was that from my understanding you started this thread stateing that the game was inordinately overpriced. When others pointed out that the price was inline with the release price of similar type games years ago. You countered that you never paid that much. As it turns out you were quoteing discount prices not release prices so it is an apples and oranges arguement.

That being said there is nothing wrong with trying to get the best price, but everything has a cost. In effect you are trading dollars for time. Undoubtly you will be able to get a discounted copy of Witp if you dont mind waiting. Admittedly Ebay does add a new dimension to this dynamic, because now if someone buys the game and doesnt like it, can resell it on Ebay immediately. If you are lucky you dont have to wait for retailers to discount. What I dont understand, that since you are a bargain shopper anyway why are you concern with the release price?

I wish you luck in your shopping, but I can tell you now I dont expect you will be finding my copy of WitP on Ebay anytime soon after it is released.


PS

To answer your queston on my purchase of the wargame pack. I was very pleased to be able to buy so many games at such a discounted price. The flip side these games being dos never worked well in the windows enviroment, which is the price I paid for waiting.

[Culiacan Mexico]

Originally posted by pasternakski
Y'all seem to understand what "shopper" is. The meaning of "wargamer" seems to escape you.

Please elaborate.

[Snigbert]

In my opinion, a wargamer cares a lot more about enjoying the game than whether they spent $20 more than they had to. If you dont think playing WitP is worth $70 then dont buy it! But I dont think any real wargamers who love this sort of game would make that choice.

[gus]

Hi Timjot

FYI I didn't start the thread. That now dubious honor goes to another psoter whose lead I should have followed and quit this thread after my first post. I should know better than to attack Matrix or try to convert the faithful.

I came in later after I had read the arguments in favor that I felt were not bonafide. For some reason the only one that resonates now is the "I paid $80.00 in the 1980's and if it was a good price then its a good price now dagnabit" argument If people are satisfied with that argument I won't be able to convince them othewise even though it flies in the face of average computer wargame pricing at every other wargame publisher

The bottom line for me here is that I want to support Matrix and I would prefer to give my money directly to them since this will fund future development, rather than to an anoymous person on Ebay where Matrix will only see one invoice instead of two.

Gus

[Culiacan Mexico]

Originally posted by Snigbert
In my opinion, a wargamer cares a lot more about enjoying the game than whether they spent $20 more than they had to. If you dont think playing WitP is worth $70 then dont buy it! But I dont think any real wargamers who love this sort of game would make that choice.

Well depending on how complex it is, and if Pacwar is any indication it going to be difficult, then anyone who buys this game better be a wargamer or they are going to be very unhappy. However, I agree that most people who will buy this game are more interested in the details of the game than the price…within reason. War in the Pacific at $59.99 isn’t going to sell that many more units when compared to a price of $69.99. IMO

[mogami]

Hi, WITP is not being sold by the companies that sell games for 50bucks. It's being made by the same guy who sold games for 80 buck 18 years ago. I've bought everygame he has ever released at what ever price it was going for when I found it. There are hundreds of 50, 40 ,30, 20 ,10 ,5, free games out there I've never owned. My point was thats the price these games have always commanded I don't expect the price to change.
In every commodity there will be a high end and a low end. If you don't like the quality of the high end item then it is silly to purchase it. If you can find the exact same item at a lower price it is silly to pay the higher.
However if you have always been satisfied and you can not find the item else where you pay the price.
E-bay did not exist when I began buying GG games.
I didn't stop and think "Well I'll just wait. $79.95 is a bit steep and in 18 years I can just download the game for free and all/most of the quirky issues will have been fixed"
What happened was "Pacific War?" read the box "My god I've got to have this, wait here I'll run out and sell a few quarts of blood so I can buy it"

[TIMJOT]

Originally posted by gus
Hi Timjot

FYI I didn't start the thread. That now dubious honor goes to another psoter whose lead I should have followed and quit this thread after my first post. I should know better than to attack Matrix or try to convert the faithful.

I came in later after I had read the arguments in favor that I felt were not bonafide. For some reason the only one that resonates now is the "I paid $80.00 in the 1980's and if it was a good price then its a good price now dagnabit" argument If people are satisfied with that argument I won't be able to convince them othewise even though it flies in the face of average computer wargame pricing at every other wargame publisher

The bottom line for me here is that I want to support Matrix and I would prefer to give my money directly to them since this will fund future development, rather than to an anoymous person on Ebay where Matrix will only see one invoice instead of two.

Gus

Hi Gus

Sorry for attributing this thread to you. My mistake. The truth is I rarely if ever buy a game without thoroughly researching it. Normally I would hesitate to buy a game for $70 but in the case of this particular game, my expirence with UV has convinced me to buy it site unseen when it comes available. Both the game itself and Matrix's track record of support has eleviated any hesitation I may have had.

[gus]

Hi Mogami,

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, WITP is not being sold by the companies that sell games for 50bucks. It's being made by the same guy who sold games for 80 buck 18 years ago. I've bought everygame he has ever released at what ever price it was going for when I found it. There are hundreds of 50, 40 ,30, 20 ,10 ,5, free games out there I've never owned. My point was thats the price these games have always commanded I don't expect the price to change.

My expectation is that the price of these products, i.e wargames, should fall into line with what other wargame publishers charge for their games. As I have already stated their prices appear to be in the $40.00 - $50.00 range. As they have similar business models, products and markets their price structures should be similar as well but they are not.

Using the logic that GG charged $80.00 nearly twenty years ago for games, someone who is unfamiliar with the actual price of UV but knowing that it is a GG gig would assume that its price should be $70.00 or $80.00 too. Just because his games have been traditionally priced in this manner does not mean that one must continue the practice.

Originally posted by Mogami In every commodity there will be a high end and a low end. If you don't like the quality of the high end item then it is silly to purchase it. If you can find the exact same item at a lower price it is silly to pay the higher.
However if you have always been satisfied and you can not find the item else where you pay the price.[/B]

I believe you may mean 'specialty good' rather than 'commodity'. A commodity generally refers to an unspecialized (mass produced)product, i.e. light sweet crude , pork bellies etc., whose price point is set by market auction. As there is no "craftmanship" involved with its production there is no market differentiator inherent to the product as well so there is no high end or low end, there just is the commodity and its price point.

Originally posted by Mogami
E-bay did not exist when I began buying GG games.
I didn't stop and think "Well I'll just wait. $79.95 is a bit steep and in 18 years I can just download the game for free and all/most of the quirky issues will have been fixed"
What happened was "Pacific War?" read the box "My god I've got to have this, wait here I'll run out and sell a few quarts of blood so I can buy it" [/B]

The point that I have been trying to make is that there are alternatives for wargamers that had not existed in the past, these include competing products and purchase path. Also we do not have to wait extended periods of time to get these games, there were copies of UV for sale on EBay less than a month after its release . If game companies simply apply the rules of the past they will be doomed by them as well. Every modern business's mantra should be "Adapt or die!". I can certainly understand the impulse purchase scenario you just described as I have been victim to it myself but it is not a pattern of purchase for a market place that one can form a business plan around.

Cheers

Gus