Did the Dutch resupply Java in 1942?

[Leandros]

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

Yeah Padang, Sibolga, even Benkoelen and Sabang . . . did the Japanese actually overrun these locations? Or for that matter, _all_ of Java? Or was it more a matter of the Japanese having taken certain key strategic locations like Soerbaja, Batavia, Balikpapin, Tarakan, Makassar, etc. and so the Dutch just surrendered?

More "a matter of" I think is OK to say...[:)]

Fred

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: jwolf

ORIGINAL: Anthropoid

With my first ever PBEM turn one coming to me any time now, I'm curious: how rare is it that an allied player (in a PBEM) manages to hold on to strategic locations in DEI, Malaysia or Philippines for longer times?

I don't know, but it seems routine in AARs I have read that the Allied player still holds something in DEI in April or even May. In my game, however, I am likely to set a record in the other direction. [:o]

It depends on your opponent. A competent (experienced) Japanese player should have have all three locations cleared out by the end of April. Maybe with a little mopping up to do. If they know their business, you won't be able to prevent it.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Seriously the Langley WAS headed for Java as Bill sez but I am not sure who was to fly them.

warspite1

According to Rising Sun, Falling Skies the decision on what to send where was changed and changed back again but it seems that:

Freighter Sea Witch had 27 crated P-40's aboard
USS Langley had c.32 ready-to-fly P-40's aboard
These ships were ordered to Java.

The men of the US 13th and 33rd Pursuit Squadrons would be tasked with flying the aircraft when they reached the island.

[HansBolter]

Against the Ai it is quite easy to make the Dutch Army, Navy and Airforce survive the Japanese invasion of the DEI.

What bother me is the way the game assumes they will go down in flames and never facilitates a transition to the offensive by them.

Once you start back onto the offense their LCUs are still stuck relying on air transport to move between the islands.

They have to rely on the ABA portion of ABDA to retake the Dutch bases so they can then be airlifted back onto their own reconquered islands.

I would love to see a provision that allows their LCUs to become unrestricted if they survive past a certain date, or at least purchasable.

[Symon]

Were there Dutch reinforcements? - No.

Were there any local sources? Harald Velemans makes it clear - basically No.

What you see is what you get.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Against the Ai it is quite easy to make the Dutch Army, Navy and Airforce survive the Japanese invasion of the DEI.

What bother me is the way the game assumes they will go down in flames and never facilitates a transition to the offensive by them.

Once you start back onto the offense their LCUs are still stuck relying on air transport to move between the islands.

They have to rely on the ABA portion of ABDA to retake the Dutch bases so they can then be airlifted back onto their own reconquered islands.

I would love to see a provision that allows their LCUs to become unrestricted if they survive past a certain date, or at least purchasable.

warspite1

Hans, again using Rising Sun, Falling skies as the source. In the book it is suggested that the US thought that reinforcing the NEI was a waste of resources once Singapore had fallen. Maybe that thinking is involved in the AI actions?

[duettoalfa]

I never lost java or sumatra in the 4 GC I started (and never finished maybe because I never lost the DEI). But most probably I was playing against unexperienced jap players.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Symon

Were there Dutch reinforcements? - No.

Were there any local sources? Harald Velemans makes it clear - basically No.

What you see is what you get.

As soon as the Japanese arrived, the locals became useless for the most part as they had already been looking for their independence.
The Japanese played on this in their propaganda organ thru out the Pacific,Philippines, etc..

[bradfordkay]

"Would Australian supply magically turn itself into Overlawagens and 8cm Bofors guns once on Java, just to mutate later at Sorebaja docks into a 75mm GMC AFV or 37mm canister ammo boxes bound for Manila? In game - yes, in real life - no. "

In the game specific weapons have a pool, so Australian supply will not turn into extra Dutch weapons that were not historically available. It will turn into ammunition for those weapons, but not the weapons themselves - so the game isn't as far off as some people seem to think.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Against the Ai it is quite easy to make the Dutch Army, Navy and Airforce survive the Japanese invasion of the DEI.

What bother me is the way the game assumes they will go down in flames and never facilitates a transition to the offensive by them.

Once you start back onto the offense their LCUs are still stuck relying on air transport to move between the islands.

They have to rely on the ABA portion of ABDA to retake the Dutch bases so they can then be airlifted back onto their own reconquered islands.

I would love to see a provision that allows their LCUs to become unrestricted if they survive past a certain date, or at least purchasable.

Actually when the game was new fully half to 2/3rds of the Dutch units could be bought out. Problem was too many players were just Sir Robinning and pulling as many units out to OZ as they can. Especially the valuable base forces. It was decided to restrict them to stop this from taking place. As it would not really have happened in the actual war. Now virtually all are white restricted and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

The problem was the Dutch (unlike us) didn’t know they were destined to lose and historically they behaved in a way and were busy making plans as if they were not about to lose. The below quoted text discussing a large order of CTLS-4TA tanks clearly shows they were planning to remain combat worthy right up to the end.

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

But of course there are lots of areas in game like this. For instance the fact India was never historically invaded leaves it very weak in game as your reinforcement track reflects that historical reality. Had India actually been invaded I have no doubt offensive operations in Africa and other areas would have been postponed or perhaps even cancelled completely in favor of reinforcing India to save India and keep it in the war. But in game that can’t occur so players are forced to try and defend India with an OOB that reflects an historical situation of a non-threat environment to India.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

The problem was the Dutch (unlike us) didn’t know they were destined to lose and historically they behaved in a way and were busy making plans as if they were not about to lose. The below quoted text discussing a large order of CTLS-4TA tanks clearly shows they were planning to remain combat worthy right up to the end.

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

But of course there are lots of areas in game like this. For instance the fact India was never historically invaded leaves it very weak in game as your reinforcement track reflects that historical reality. Had India actually been invaded I have no doubt offensive operations in Africa and other areas would have been postponed or perhaps even cancelled completely in favor of reinforcing India to save India and keep it in the war. But in game that can’t occur so players are forced to try and defend India with an OOB that reflects an historical situation of a non-threat environment to India.

Very concise synopsis Jim.

Unfortunately the results you outline in India give the game a decidedly pro Japanese slant from the obviously biased perspective of an AFB.

Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I would think the same is true for the over the top ability of the Japanese to use the invulnerable KB to cover an invasion of Australia in January 42 to facilitate running up a huge VP total by strategic bombing industry that has zero fighter cover.

The Japanese didn't know the KB was invulnerable.

Sorry for drifting off topic.

[tigercub]

I have to say its a surprize Dutch with a tommy gun.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: tigercub

I have to say its a surprize Dutch with a tommy gun.

Many Thompsons made their way around the world since the thirties. The Americans knew during world war one they were way behind the rest of the world in arms, (especially after the French foisted the Chaut Chaut on them,LOL)..
I fired my dad's Chaut Chaut..I seem to recall paper was used in the ammo itself!
America has been ever so fortunate to have great innovaters and inventers once "needs" were realized.
Marston matting, Spam and Quonset huts were all quick fixes to problems encountered in war.

Speaking of "opening a can of worms".....It is historically known that fighter runways with Marston matting could be ready for use in two days..That will never be in WITP/AE....[:D]

[tigercub]

never knew the name of it thanks (Marston matting) the pace of the game is fast enough anyways.


Tigercub

[tigercub]

del

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: crsutton
and they will have to die where they stay. Yes, it is an issue if the Dutch survive. But the Dutch get no devices or replacement troops anyways.

The problem was the Dutch (unlike us) didn’t know they were destined to lose and historically they behaved in a way and were busy making plans as if they were not about to lose. The below quoted text discussing a large order of CTLS-4TA tanks clearly shows they were planning to remain combat worthy right up to the end.

A further 149 CTLS-4TA's were en route to Java when the Dutch East Indies
surrendered. These tanks were unloaded in Australia where they served as training
tanks with the Australian Army. They were soon declared obsolete and scrapped. The
39 remaining light tanks on the contract were shipped from the U.S. to the Dutch West
Indies (7 to Curacao, 6 to Aruba and 26 to Suriname).

So some design decisions were made in the interest of forcing the Dutch into a hopeless situation and the game fails utterly to model the Dutch mindset of continuing the fight for as long as they could. So hard coding the Dutch replacement pools to prevent their ability to fight on beyond early 42 is a design decision but it does not reflect historical reality. Had they survived the Dutch would have found ways to remain combat capable.

But of course there are lots of areas in game like this. For instance the fact India was never historically invaded leaves it very weak in game as your reinforcement track reflects that historical reality. Had India actually been invaded I have no doubt offensive operations in Africa and other areas would have been postponed or perhaps even cancelled completely in favor of reinforcing India to save India and keep it in the war. But in game that can’t occur so players are forced to try and defend India with an OOB that reflects an historical situation of a non-threat environment to India.

Very concise synopsis Jim.

Unfortunately the results you outline in India give the game a decidedly pro Japanese slant from the obviously biased perspective of an AFB.

Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I would think the same is true for the over the top ability of the Japanese to use the invulnerable KB to cover an invasion of Australia in January 42 to facilitate running up a huge VP total by strategic bombing industry that has zero fighter cover.

The Japanese didn't know the KB was invulnerable.

Sorry for drifting off topic.

I don't find a Japanese invasion of India to be much of a problem. It can be touch and go but in the long run I think it is a mistake for many reasons and favors the Allies. As the Allied player I welcome a fight in India.

[tigercub]

depends on what the Japanese player plans to do there I for 1 its just a points grab for me until it no longer worth doing.

Tigercub

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I wasn’t trying to open a can of worms over this or anything, I was just looking to emphasize my point about hard coded design decisions and the limitations they cause in game.

In a perfect world there would be a button that becomes active that allied players could push once Japanese troops landed in India. That button would represent some of the Forces from Africa that were used to launch Operation Lightfoot attacks that the allies could designate to come to India (at a significant VP cost of course). I’d say 2 armor divisions and 3 or 4 infantry divisions is not beyond reason should the decision to forgo the attacks have been made. You could even go further and give players a choice, postpone they get 1 armor and 2 inf, cancel and they get 2 armor and 4 inf.

A second button could represent units from Operation Torch, these units would be considerable as the cancellation of that action would represent the wholesale redeployment of the entire force (ships included) to India.

Another possibility would be to simply accelerate the timeline of the reinforcements list for any unit scheduled to arrive in India/Aden by 6 months or something similar to what happens if the US gets invaded.

Jim

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Shouldn't there be negative consequences to Japan for such an adventure that would offset the OOBs inability to deal with it?

I wasn’t trying to open a can of worms over this or anything, I was just looking to emphasize my point about hard coded design decisions and the limitations they cause in game.

In a perfect world there would be a button that becomes active that allied players could push once Japanese troops landed in India. That button would represent some of the Forces from Africa that were used to launch Operation Lightfoot attacks that the allies could designate to come to India (at a significant VP cost of course). I’d say 2 armor divisions and 3 or 4 infantry divisions is not beyond reason should the decision to forgo the attacks have been made. You could even go further and give players a choice, postpone they get 1 armor and 2 inf, cancel and they get 2 armor and 4 inf.

A second button could represent units from Operation Torch, these units would be considerable as the cancellation of that action would represent the wholesale redeployment of the entire force (ships included) to India.

Another possibility would be to simply accelerate the timeline of the reinforcements list for any unit scheduled to arrive in India/Aden by 6 months or something similar to what happens if the US gets invaded.

Jim

Wasn't looking to open old wounds either Jim.

My dissatisfaction with what I have always perceived as a Japanese slant in the game by enabling of a "conquest of the known world" agenda for Jaspanese players is and always has been a bit over the top.

Its downright painful to read AARs wherein Japan rampages almost unchecked across most of the map and can't be reigned in for a year to 18 moths longer than it took historically.

Has always been one of my pet peeves and unfortunately I too often fall prey to the desire to vent.