A Glorious Way to Die: John 3rd vs. NY59Giants BTS: Lite

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This subject line too.

I just had to bring this one back to the front. Operation Skanky Undergarments? NICE!!!

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: Wargmr
In my first game against NJP I sortied all available surface ships that were unhurt and engaged the KB the next day. I did hit a few carriers although not seriously. However, a good turn of luck might have ended the game almost before it started.

Did NJP detach BBs from the KB in a separate surface TF? Because if not that would seem to be the mistake to me. From what I understand, a surface TF will go out and meet any attackers before it can engage air TFs.

[John 3rd]

You can draned well bet your granny knickers that I will have my 4 BCs locked, cocked, and ready to rumble!

[John 3rd]

Does that title work for you Dan!!!!????

We haven't even discussed the plan for moving west into India...

I will use the Fleet to blockade and threaten Hawaii while AT THE SAME TIME move into India with a full fledged assault. This area is more murky but I really want to see-saw Michael into having to make serious choices for WHERE to fight. With only using two Infantry Divisions for the Central Pacific adventure, this leaves the balance of the army to smack right into eastern India. I may go after Ceylon down to Diego Garcia (like what I wanted to do with Cribtop) or simply land at Diamond Harbor U(using LBA for primary cover) and cause CHAOS!

This is the OTHER side of the planned war...

[Lowpe]

I have been looking at second day strikes at Pearl and they are painful -- since you are going to be there I would consider sweeps your best bet, especially as you want to stick around for awhile.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Sangeli

ORIGINAL: Wargmr
In my first game against NJP I sortied all available surface ships that were unhurt and engaged the KB the next day. I did hit a few carriers although not seriously. However, a good turn of luck might have ended the game almost before it started.

Did NJP detach BBs from the KB in a separate surface TF? Because if not that would seem to be the mistake to me. From what I understand, a surface TF will go out and meet any attackers before it can engage air TFs.

I have run a couple of these lately and the split off surface ships always protect the Carriers, the engagements aren't very damaging to either sides, but the Carriers are protected. I vectored three good Allied task forces of CA/DD, 8 DD, CL/DD right at the KB and SAG and the SAG stopped everything but then promptly retired to Osaka. I made sure to have several floats on night search.

[John 3rd]

The slightly corrected version has been sent to Michael. We're gonna start Turn One prep tonight.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Planning and Strategy

So how do we pull Michael out of his safe little box?

Simple answer. We'll force him to fight.

This is my initial planning:
1. Operation East Wind: The capture of the Hawaiian Islands with the exception of Pearl Harbor.

Ground/Amphibious Operations
Phase One: Take Midway and the Line Islands within 10 days of the opening of hostilities. This is 'normal' for me so Michael won't freak too much when I do it. Will use SNLF Assault Brigades and Naval Guards here.
Phase Two: Capture of Johnston Atoll. This is different for me but I hope Michael sees it as a STUPID move and doesn't think too much about it. SNLF units used here as well.
Phase Three: A multi-pronged assault taking ALL of the Hawaiian Islands within days of each other. Lesser targets to be taken by SNLF Assault Brigades and the more important will be grabbed by the 2nd and 56rh Inf Divisions.

Every engineer and all of the 9th Air Fleet's Base Forces to be used here.

Air Allocation
Will gradually bring more airpower into the east to augment the starting forces. Most important will be the entire 9th Air Fleet. These 225 planes will constitute the Japanese Hawaiian Air Force.

Kaigun
This is supposed to be an enhanced Naval Mod. Well...we are going to see. The KB will lay in a BLOCKADE of Hawaii and not let up until the end of Phase Three. The 4 CV, CVL, CAV, and 4 BC. This should be enough initially but I am bringing CARDIV2 over as soon as initial ground ops are done around the Philippines. This will raise the force by 2 CV, 1 CVL, and 2 BC. The two Nagatos and two new Owari BBs will come as well.

This is the EASTERN Side of the 'Grand Plan.'

There is a WESTERN Side as well...

So what will your supply tail look like? I'm guessing a few AKE in the Marshalls and maybe Johnston? Where will you deploy your HQa? Nells/Bettys with fish under their wings might-could help out a lot if you could take Lahaina first... And you might want to start out a buncha DMS or whatever you plan to use for sweeping the mines @ PH. ASAP I'd be cratoring the AF/Ports of PH to stop any fort level increases.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

I have been looking at second day strikes at Pearl and they are painful -- since you are going to be there I would consider sweeps your best bet, especially as you want to stick around for awhile.

Day1 I'd use all of my DB against the AF. That should help reduce allied CAP on Day2. From Day2 4ward I'd keep plastering the airfield and not use my Kates - Kates would stay local naval-atk range 3.

My WAG is that a Hawaiian campaign will require more LCU assets then you've listed...

[John 3rd]

I've been strongly thinking of using ALL the Vals for the AF on the 7th. We'll do all Kates on the Port and HOPE for lots of TT hits. Figure Day TWO I'll SWEEP with my Zeros and recommence Bombing on Day THREE. Hope to lower the morale of those P-40s as fast as possible. The interesting thing is--if Michael follows form--he'll set all of his planes to rest on Dec 8th so a second strike might take him flat-footed. That would be a pretty big role of the dice to send in the bombers again on the 8th without a SWEEP.

Course since I don't intend to take PH, I really don't have to worry about the Forts so maybe this is somewhat moot. A second Port Strike would be good but probably prohibitive in losses.

OPTIONS! Have to keep thinking.

Other Comments:
1. I'll have other assets coming in. Just haven't tailored the OOB quite yet. Am thinking about buying out that Korean ID (19th or 17th???) that starts in components with 80+ experience. Since I start with over 1,000 Political Points, it would not take too long to buy it out and send it east.

2. There are only token units in the other Hawaiian bases so that should be be too hard to grab them.

3. LOTS of ML and LOTS of Minesweepers needed. AGREED!

4. We'll stock Midway with an Air Flotilla immediately then throw as many engineers into Christmas as possible to raise the AF and Pt.

5. The Japanese start with a little bit more in Fleet Train but not too much. Figure I shall do a TON of conversions starting on Day ONE!

6. Supply and Fuel will have to be stockpiled massively. First to the Marshalls then to Midway--Christmas Isle.

There are tons of details but it really helps to know what we're doing on Day ONE. Everything starts in that direction immediately.

[1EyedJacks]

Don't take this wrong but I just gotta ask. If you go to all this trouble and don't take PH then what's the point? PH really gives you the middle of the board, forcing Michael to try to come at you from an edge. And PH gives you what - 3000 points? If Michael comes at Hawaii to retake the islands you'll bleed him something awful. And in a naval defense it's pretty sweet to have a naval repair base in the location you are defending while the allies have to travel clear back to San Fran or San Diego... BTW - I agree with your assessment that Michael likes to wait til he has completely stacked the deck in his favor. So, if he stacks all the land, air, and naval assets that he thinks he'd need for retaking the Hawaiian islands then you will not see those assets in the DEI, Oz, or India...

If you're not going to take PH then I'd leave Hawaii alone and define your defensive perimeter of islands that you want as your first stand and then center you primary attacks to collecting oil, points, and a strong defense. I mean you do want to get to 44/45 in this game - yes?

[John 3rd]

I would LOVE to do it but first we have to take everything around it. I simply cannot imagine getting it but if we take everything around and establish control of the air and sea then there could be a possibility. Have we ever had someone actually take it in an AAR?

Just want to scare the tar out of Michael and force his attention elsewhere.

Guess it is 'in for a penny, in for a pound.'

[John 3rd]

We've officially began Turn ONE preparation. Will take my time and Post as I give orders for each region.

Here are our HR:

House Rules vs Michael

1. 1st turn can have multiple port attacks, but ONLY with carrier involvement. Manila and Singapore may have Fighters up and on CAP. Allies cannot transfer new Squadrons reflecting prior knowledge.

2. PPs to move out of national borders (Japan - Manchuria, Thai) and (Allies - India, China). Thai can move only one country away.

3. No strategic bombing (Oil, Resources, HI, LI, etc.) on EITHER side until July 1, 1943.

4. Non-historic 1st turn, normal reinforcements, PDUs ON, orders for TF formed already OK, no transfers

5. Aircraft Limitations (reflecting the Mod):
-No A6M3 on CVEs
-No A6M4 on any form of Carrier
-A7M Sam and B7A-D Grace cannot be operated from CVEs

6. Four-Engine Bombers: 4E bombers restricted to 10k or higher for naval and ground attacks (does not include PBY/Mavis type patrol craft)

7. China: Cease fire in effect until 1 January 42, except Hong Kong. If either side vacates a base during this time the other may move into if desired.

[John 3rd]

I started looking at the board for Turn ONE. One of the things that drives me nuts is the crazy shotgun layout of Japanese TK and AK so I fiddle-faddled some to make things a bit more workable to some sort of plan. Starting Turn ONE today.

[Mike McCreery]

Wanted:

A JFB that isnt crazy nuts and intent on taking over the world.

That breed is rare these days...

Just sayin'

[Sangeli]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
Have we ever had someone actually take it in an AAR?

Well, not in this forum but it has been done!

http://www.warplanorange.net/forum/view ... =22&t=3907

I agree that the strategy must include actually taking PH. But if Japan lays seige to it that can be done in mid-42. As long as nothing is going into PH then waiting is OK. Still, I'd say you are better off not taking the risk and trying to take it as early as possible.

[1EyedJacks]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I started looking at the board for Turn ONE. One of the things that drives me nuts is the crazy shotgun layout of Japanese TK and AK so I fiddle-faddled some to make things a bit more workable to some sort of plan. Starting Turn ONE today.

Well - truthfully, I expect Michael to focus more on your game and so I expect him to skimp on the pickup game with Vlad & I. It's my hope that Japan in my game will soon be kicking some serious round-eye booty. <grin>

Looking at my own map and chewing on how I'd approach a similar challenge of taking PH... I think you need to plan for PH from day 1 and use both IJA and IJN assets. To that end I'd try to build a bridge from Takao to the Marshalls, identifying the islands I need to have airfields and air support so army fighters/bombers could hop their way to the Marshalls. And I think you are right that you'd want to stockpile lotsa supplies and BB/CA/CV support as close to the Hawaiian chain of islands as possible. In this BTS-Lite mod you have better assets on the table at the start of the war but you are hampered a bit on the logistics end since your merchant fleet capacity is reduced by what - about a 3rd cargo capacity per ship? How fast do you think you could maintain a strong enough presence to keep the PH airfield from flying aircraft? I think if you can take out his airfields and keep them out then you stop forts from building and can take PH. What kind of LCU assets would you need if PH is at forts level 3? Four divisions plus combat engineers, corps HQ, and arty? How long would it take you to bomb away the supply level @ PH and put the allied troops in a situation similar to Bataan?

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

Wanted:

A JFB that isnt crazy nuts and intent on taking over the world.

That breed is rare these days...

Just sayin'

See...that is the ENTIRE point. I am CRAZY and admit it! Now---if there is any reality to the game he SHOULD be able to:
1. stop me.
2. Bleed me so bad that the Japanese collapse occurs far earlier.

On the whole takin' over the world point though I would point out the same 'realism' argument would also apply to:
1. NOT defending important places that national/world opinion would have demanded.
2. EITHER the Japanese or Chinese actually taking over their respective opponent's area.
3. The total collaboration between both IJA--IJN AND ABDA Fleets (including creating a CV 'Death Star' of ABDA flight decks.
4. Creating a massed, invincible army that sweeps from India, down through Burma, to Indochina, and Malaya.

It----is---a---simulation. Not reality.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: 1EyedJacks

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I started looking at the board for Turn ONE. One of the things that drives me nuts is the crazy shotgun layout of Japanese TK and AK so I fiddle-faddled some to make things a bit more workable to some sort of plan. Starting Turn ONE today.

Well - truthfully, I expect Michael to focus more on your game and so I expect him to skimp on the pickup game with Vlad & I. It's my hope that Japan in my game will soon be kicking some serious round-eye booty. <grin>

Looking at my own map and chewing on how I'd approach a similar challenge of taking PH... I think you need to plan for PH from day 1 and use both IJA and IJN assets. To that end I'd try to build a bridge from Takao to the Marshalls, identifying the islands I need to have airfields and air support so army fighters/bombers could hop their way to the Marshalls. And I think you are right that you'd want to stockpile lotsa supplies and BB/CA/CV support as close to the Hawaiian chain of islands as possible. In this BTS-Lite mod you have better assets on the table at the start of the war but you are hampered a bit on the logistics end since your merchant fleet capacity is reduced by what - about a 3rd cargo capacity per ship? How fast do you think you could maintain a strong enough presence to keep the PH airfield from flying aircraft? I think if you can take out his airfields and keep them out then you stop forts from building and can take PH. What kind of LCU assets would you need if PH is at forts level 3? Four divisions plus combat engineers, corps HQ, and arty? How long would it take you to bomb away the supply level @ PH and put the allied troops in a situation similar to Bataan?

Gonna think of those points a little. Thanks for jumping in and contributing. PLEASE keep it up Sir!

[Mike McCreery]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Wargmr

Wanted:

A JFB that isnt crazy nuts and intent on taking over the world.

That breed is rare these days...

Just sayin'

See...that is the ENTIRE point. I am CRAZY and admit it! Now---if there is any reality to the game he SHOULD be able to:
1. stop me.
2. Bleed me so bad that the Japanese collapse occurs far earlier.

On the whole takin' over the world point though I would point out the same 'realism' argument would also apply to:
1. NOT defending important places that national/world opinion would have demanded.
2. EITHER the Japanese or Chinese actually taking over their respective opponent's area.
3. The total collaboration between both IJA--IJN AND ABDA Fleets (including creating a CV 'Death Star' of ABDA flight decks.
4. Creating a massed, invincible army that sweeps from India, down through Burma, to Indochina, and Malaya.

It----is---a---simulation. Not reality.

There are no committee meetings nor politics involved much less foreign intervention so it isnt even a simulation, it is a game

If you are trying to force him to engage your forces while the fight is still lopsided which is arguably what he normally does then so be it.

On your first point, the game isnt fair. I am not sure if you mean balanced rather than realistic. Because you argued yourself in a circle there ;]