Fall Gelb

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well let's leave that for now and look at possible Polish response.

Firstly, the Poles may want to ensure their aircraft are available to counter this set up and so will want them available to survive the first surprise turn. However, having only 2-strength bombers in situ, the Poles would be unlucky to lose (disorganise) these. Even so, they do not take the chance and keep them out of the way until they can fly them in next impulse.

The Poles will also want to ensure that the HQ is as safe from ground strike too. This set-up sees Gdynia defended (potential issue for German Baltic convoys) and a unit threatening Konigsberg / East Prussia.

With a chance of no ground strike success, two units are in Katowice. The HQ is safe as are the Polish aircraft. Assaults will be required in any attack.

With this Polish set up it seems probable to me that the Germans get a automatic, or at worst, a 7-1 attack against Lodz during the first impulse. And the factory in Lodz and the resources are what you want in Poland.

The Polish defence must defend their factory cities better. It is not like you want to advance into Germany or East Prussia anyway.

warspite1

Agreed. This set-up is too aggressive (i.e. it is trying to achieve / threaten too much and has left a big hole in the form of the attack on Lodz.

The rationale is that if the Germans are happy to sit and wait, I want Poland to be "doing something". The other option is the conservative set-up to thus make it difficult for the Germans to take Poland out quickly. This is a very interesting scenario I think.

I'll get comments on the German set-up and finalise this so I can move onto Poland.

[composer99]

Preface: The use of 'you' in the below is the "general" you, not any reader (or you personally, warspite1) specifically.

Re: The German set up.

You probably don't really need to deploy units in East Prussia. If the Poles advance, you get a production bump, and if they attack your reserve unit, you get an even bigger bump!

IMO your defensive goal as Germany is to keep the Poles from getting at your factory cities (especially in Czechoslovakia which is not home country) or oil, where they could actually do some worthwhile damage. Your offensive goal is to first secure the southern resources, then the cities.

One thing to keep in mind is that you have very strong reserves which would almost all be deployed against the Low Countries & France, so at least IMO you can spare a couple more corps for the Polish front. 45-50 combat factors dedicated against the Poles should be satisfactory, with 1 blitz corps (the MECH, probably) in case they get frisky and move out of the cities.


Re: the Polish setup

Unless there is an opportunity to seize factories in Czechoslovakia and burn them at the end of the turn, I don't see much value, or indeed any value, in an aggressive set up. What you want to be doing, in my view, is tying up the Germans and hoping you last until 1940.

To that end, in my opinion, you want to lightly screen Posen and Katowice, and strongly defend Warsaw and Lodz and, to the extent that it is possible, Krakow.

The dream is that in 1940 the Germans don't have enough garrison vis-à-vis the Nazi-Soviet pact and the USSR can break it (though probably not declare war - unless the Allies can afford the US entry chit loss), sinking the German war economy while France is still alive. Sure, France will likely still fall, and the Germans will be able to declare war early, but the bulk of the Wehrmacht will start off in the west, and the Germans will have a much weaker economic base, meaning less production in 1940-1941, less lending to Italy, and a weaker position against the CW and US in 1941-1942.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: composer99

Preface: The use of 'you' in the below is the "general" you, not any reader (or you personally, warspite1) specifically.

Re: The German set up.

You probably don't really need to deploy units in East Prussia. If the Poles advance, you get a production bump, and if they attack your reserve unit, you get an even bigger bump!

IMO your defensive goal as Germany is to keep the Poles from getting at your factory cities (especially in Czechoslovakia which is not home country) or oil, where they could actually do some worthwhile damage. Your offensive goal is to first secure the southern resources, then the cities.

One thing to keep in mind is that you have very strong reserves which would almost all be deployed against the Low Countries & France, so at least IMO you can spare a couple more corps for the Polish front. 45-50 combat factors dedicated against the Poles should be satisfactory, with 1 blitz corps (the MECH, probably) in case they get frisky and move out of the cities.


Re: the Polish setup

Unless there is an opportunity to seize factories in Czechoslovakia and burn them at the end of the turn, I don't see much value, or indeed any value, in an aggressive set up. What you want to be doing, in my view, is tying up the Germans and hoping you last until 1940.

To that end, in my opinion, you want to lightly screen Posen and Katowice, and strongly defend Warsaw and Lodz and, to the extent that it is possible, Krakow.

The dream is that in 1940 the Germans don't have enough garrison vis-à-vis the Nazi-Soviet pact and the USSR can break it (though probably not declare war - unless the Allies can afford the US entry chit loss), sinking the German war economy while France is still alive. Sure, France will likely still fall, and the Germans will be able to declare war early, but the bulk of the Wehrmacht will start off in the west, and the Germans will have a much weaker economic base, meaning less production in 1940-1941, less lending to Italy, and a weaker position against the CW and US in 1941-1942.

warspite1

Okay thanks - I will wait for further feedback so we get a consensus. One question though; where would you put German units (and how many) in the north if not in East Prussia?

[composer99]

A reserve unit in Konigsberg and the rest around Posen (where they can react to screen Stettin if the Poles set up in Danzig).

My favoured German set up is actually a "Gelb-lite" set up, with von Rundstedt, the 2 ARM corps, and 2-4 other corps set up in the west with a couple of bombers (I expect bad weather and short turns in fall-winter 39-40, but I want to exploit good weather opportunities when they arise, and the reserves are usually sufficient to fill out the forces arrayed against France), and the rest vs. Poland, so I normally have 2 corps in East Prussia and then a line of corps stretching from the hex northwest of Posen along the border to the mountains in Slovakia.

Going for a more fleshed out "Gelb" set up would mean transferring some of those corps to the west and leaving East Prussia to the Konigsberg MIL to defend so I can concentrate my forces on Posen and the resources during the surprise impulse.

[Jagdtiger14]

On the Polish set up...I would place the Polish HQ in Warsaw, the 5 point INF you have on the Prussian/lithuanian border in Lodz. Put the Polish INF div in Warsaw.

On the German set up...if you want to put a German FTR vs Poland to keep the Polish air out, then put the 4 point FTR there, not the 5. I would not put any MECH vs Poland, but I mostly agree with what composer wrote. Put the Alpine unit on the western front.

Concerning Netherlands...and ARM/Mech deployment...you don't need these to take out Netherlands...use strong INF up there...I see your 7 point INF in Saarland and your 7 point MOT on the Danish border...you can use a weaker 4 mover to move into Copenhagen.

Get ready to rail a 4pt GAR to Copenhagen (put it in Karlsruhe)...the 3pt GAR on the Maginot front can move one hex north.

Thank you Orm...on the German reserves...put the 9pt INF and 8pt MOT vs Netherlands, hide the 8pt MECH in the woods on the western front. The 5pt and 6pt INF can go vs Poland, and the two GAR you can put in East Prussia.

[Orm]

The German reserves.

[paulderynck]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

First question.

In this scenario does it make more sense for Poland to be aligned to France? The CW is hampered by the need to do Naval - France are less restricted in this regard.

Game rules that out, states must align with CW.

[paulderynck]

This strategy - essentially "France first" can work dramatically well if the weather stays good. But that is unlikely.

[Jagdtiger14]

Just out of curiosity...probably for another separate thread....looking at the options not taken (not that these pertain to Fall Gelb):

Options not used, and why (I thought everyone played with these): Frogmen? Partisan HQ's? Guard Banner Armies? City based volunteers? Convoys in Flames? Synth plants? Forts? Supply units? Limited supply across straits? Emergency HQ supply? Carpet bombing? Kamikazes?

Some that my group plays with, but might not be popular with some: Bounce combat? Enroute interception?

Perhaps some of these listed are not yet available in MWiF?

[Jagdtiger14]

Paul: All you need is at least two Axis rain (or fair) impulses after the first fair impulse (not sure what the percentage of that happening is). In my opinion the S/O'39 goal should be to cross the Dyle without using an O-chit.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

Paul: All you need is at least two Axis rain (or fair) impulses after the first fair impulse (not sure what the percentage of that happening is). In my opinion the S/O'39 goal should be to cross the Dyle without using an O-chit.

warspite1

Well this is what this thread is all about and no doubt we will show this set up under all conditions - great weather through to rubbish weather, great dice through to nightmare dice from hell etc etc.

Hopefully get some more input overnight and a consensus on how much to place on each front, and then I will finalise the Germans.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Jagdtiger14

On the Polish set up...I would place the Polish HQ in Warsaw, the 5 point INF you have on the Prussian/lithuanian border in Lodz. Put the Polish INF div in Warsaw.

On the German set up...if you want to put a German FTR vs Poland to keep the Polish air out, then put the 4 point FTR there, not the 5. I would not put any MECH vs Poland, but I mostly agree with what composer wrote. Put the Alpine unit on the western front.

Concerning Netherlands...and ARM/Mech deployment...you don't need these to take out Netherlands...use strong INF up there...I see your 7 point INF in Saarland and your 7 point MOT on the Danish border...you can use a weaker 4 mover to move into Copenhagen.

Get ready to rail a 4pt GAR to Copenhagen (put it in Karlsruhe)...the 3pt GAR on the Maginot front can move one hex north.

Thank you Orm...on the German reserves...put the 9pt INF and 8pt MOT vs Netherlands, hide the 8pt MECH in the woods on the western front. The 5pt and 6pt INF can go vs Poland, and the two GAR you can put in East Prussia.

warspite1

Hold on - having just read through your's and composer's posts again - I am confused. Am I looking at Fall Gelb lite now or what?

- What about Saarbrucken - left empty?
- What additional unit do you want me to put in Karlsruhe so I can rail the Garrison out?
- The Reserves you want opposite Holland - presumably you mean Dusseldorf so you can have them next turn for Belgium?
- Where exactly are the 3 x ARM, the 1 x MECH, the 2 x ART and von Rundstedt and von Bock going?

Which of the 3 hexes to the right of the Maginot Line are manned?

[Jagdtiger14]

Well, remember we need to define in general what is "Fall Gelb" as everyone has their own version. I call my version "modified Fall Gelb" because of debates within my face to face group (they insist that a pure Fall Gelb is defeat of France by the end of 1939...which is not doable of course. Composer is calling his version "Fall Gelb lite". And Peter has another idea that I think is "Fall Gelb extremely lite". I defined mine by stating the primary and secondary objectives with a time frame...I think this is required.

[Orm]

It might help if we have a some sort of timetable.

1st German impulse: DOW Poland
2nd German impulse: DOW Netherlands - Germany consider taking a combined impulse and plan to invade Rotterdam
3rd German impulse: DOW Denmark and Belgium - Capturing Antwerp priority and refusing CW/French forces access to Brussels

Is this close to what you plan for?

[Jagdtiger14]

Orm...that would be the time table weather permitting (fair or rain).

[Centuur]

Options not used, and why (I thought everyone played with these): Frogmen? Partisan HQ's? Guard Banner Armies? City based volunteers? Convoys in Flames?
The options stated above are not implemented yet. Some are partly coded, some are not coded at all.

These options are coded:
Synth plants? Forts? Supply units? Limited supply across straits? Emergency HQ supply? Carpet bombing? Kamikazes?

The only option here that I really don't like is Carpet Bombing. That option seems to inbalance the game towards the Allied side too much.

And here is my setup for the first turn, that I used in the AAR. It has five very good units and von Bock in the West, with some air. Together with the reserves (which contain four very good units too), those make a very good striking force for attacking Belgium (or the Netherlands) in the third Axis impulse. Now, I had a lousy draw of land bombers this game, but if I had a third bomber with at least 4 TAC factors, it would have been added to the Western front too.

[Jagdtiger14]

Warspite: It would be useful to see a map of the area without units on the map so I can refer to hexes more easily.

Saarbrucken: I need to see what is printed on the map since I don't remember if there is a factory and/or resource there.
Karlsruhe: MECH unit...see below.
Reserves opposite Holland/Belgium: Dusseldorf is ok.
Units: I need to see the map better.

[Orm]

Edit: Is this the picture you were looking for?

[Jagdtiger14]

3 ARM: Achen, Cologne, Frankfurt.
1 MECH: Karlsruhe
2 ARTY: Forward most clear hex, other than the 2-6 sp gun...put that on the Danish border to run to Frederickshaven.
Rundstedt: Remagen hex.
Bock: NE of Remagen (forest) hex.

Saarbrucken needs a unit.

Be prepared to rail GAR units to Frederickshaven and Copenhagen asap.

Does the Slovakian MIL exist in MWiF?

[Orm]

If we go for Netherlands and Belgium during the first turn. Don't we want the CW forces to land in Denmark then?