Zero vs. B-17

[Knavey]

Here is the AAR that just made Feinders heart stop temporarily. We were on the phone and I was telling him the results of the combat as it occurred (since the 001 file replay is bugged...see other post) and I think he almost DIED. So did I for that matter. But of course, it all turned out OK for him in the end.

Bah!

You will see it in the close to Port Moresby combat that occurs. I sure wish it had gone the other way.

Oh well,

BITE ME FEINDER!!!!

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 05/29/42

Weather: Rain

Air attack on TF at 13,34


Allied aircraft
Beaufort x 9
P-400 Airacobra x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 11
P-40E Kittyhawk x 3


Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort x 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Atlantic Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Batavia Maru, Shell hits 4, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Akashisan Maru, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 1, on fire
AP Hakuyo Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet
1 x Beaufort at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
Hudson x 15

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson x 1 destroyed
Hudson x 7 damaged

PO1 S. Yamashita of F1/Tainan Daitai is credited with kill number 3

Japanese Ships
AP Yamakuni Maru
AP Nana Maru, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Hudson at 100 feet
2 x Hudson at 100 feet
4 x Hudson at 100 feet
4 x Hudson at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 13,34


Allied aircraft
Beaufort x 12
P-39D Airacobra x 20


Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort x 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Batavia Maru, on fire
AP Boston Maru, Shell hits 12, Bomb hits 2, on fire
AP Hakuyo Maru
AP Akashisan Maru, on fire
AP Atlantic Maru, on fire

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet
1 x Beaufort at 100 feet
3 x Beaufort at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack at 21,30

Japanese Ships
DD Yayoi, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
SS S-47


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 10,40

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu
CA Myoko
CL Tenryu
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 4, on fire
DD Shiratsuyu, Shell hits 1
DD Shigure
DD Yugure

Allied Ships
CV Hornet
DD Perkins, Shell hits 21, on fire, heavy damage
DD Worden
DD Arunta, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
DD Warramunga


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 10,40

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 3
CA Myoko, Shell hits 4
CL Tenryu, Shell hits 1
DD Asagumo, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Shiratsuyu, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Shigure, Shell hits 1
DD Yugure, Shell hits 20, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CV Lexington
CV Yorktown
CA Portland
CA Chester, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA New Orleans, Shell hits 1, on fire
CA Astoria, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
CA Minneapolis
DD Sims
DD Anderson
DD Hammann
DD Russell
DD Morris
DD Phelps
DD Dewey
DD Monaghan
DD Alwin


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
Hudson x 8

no losses

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson x 1 destroyed
Hudson x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Mikage Maru #20
AP Kenshin Maru
AP Keisho Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x Hudson at 100 feet
1 x Hudson at 100 feet
4 x Hudson at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 11,32


Allied aircraft
Beaufort x 4


Allied aircraft losses
Beaufort x 2 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Oigawa Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
4 x Beaufort at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 13,34


Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 84
Beaufort x 2
P-39D Airacobra x 17


no losses

Japanese Ships
PC Ch 16, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AP Hakuyo Maru, Shell hits 32, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 18, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
AP Atlantic Maru, Shell hits 8, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 6, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PC Ch 17, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage

Attacking Level Bombers:
2 x Beaufort at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF, near Lae at 9,33

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 7

Allied aircraft
Hudson x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hudson x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
AP Kenshin Maru

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x Hudson at 100 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[johnbruning]

Here is a quote from the book Samurai that is about Saburo Saki the greatest Japanese fighter pilot to survive World War II.

"It was incredible out there today," Tanaka said. "We caught the Fortresses just right, and over and over I pressed home the attacks against the B-17's. At lest twice I caught a bomber perfectly. I could see the bullets hitting and the cannon shells exploding in the airplanes. But they wouldn't go down!"

Tanka looked almost haggard. "These damned bombers are impossible," he spat disgustedly, "when they work into their defensive formations."

He went on to relate how his attack had, however, disrupted the B-17s' bombing run, causing many of the bombs to fall harmlessly into the sea.


Rick

----------
Rick,

Samauri is a very suspect book, so be careful when you use it. It was not a direct translation from Saburo Sakai's original Japanese manuscript. Instead, Fred Saito took notes from it for Martin Caidin, who then flushed out the notes as he saw fit. Much of what is in Samauri is complete fiction, spawned from Caidin's imagination. Best see Henry Sakaida's book "Winged Samauri" for details on this, but whole sections of Samauri were concocted by Caidin--including Sakai's last flight in 1945.

That said, B-17s were very, very tough for the JNAF and JAAF to bring down. Those men from the 19th Bomb Group I've interviewed over the years have described some miraculous escapes from dozens of Zeroes. One need only read Jay Zeamer's Medal of Honor citation to realize just how rugged the B-17 was. Conversely, the Zero's fragility ensured it would not stand up to the concentrated fire of a formation of Flying Forts.

The JAAF was way, way worse off. Can you imagine attacking a formation of B-17s in a Ki-43? Twin machine guns are all you've got, and you're in a plane with no armor, no self-sealing tanks, and one that at altitude didn't have much of a speed advantage over the B-17. Essentially, those guys were screwed.

One other thing about Sakai: The men in the Zero Fighter Pilot's Association--The Unabaraki--really didn't like him. He was pretty much a pariah due to his highly controversial writings in Japan. The other vets thought he was out of line and ostracized him.


Regards,

John Bruning

[Howard Mitchell]

Originally posted by Kid
Both players see the same combat report so the FOW is applied to both sides even palying AI. It would not be worth the programing effort to make Human vs. AI diffrent.

Rick

errr... yes it would, pretty please!

Not to bothered about this in UV, but for WITP with far more air units trying to figure out what actually happened to your own forces after a battle could be very time consuming.

[siRkid]

Originally posted by johnbruning
Samauri is a very suspect book, so be careful when you use it. It was not a direct translation from Saburo Sakai's original Japanese manuscript. Instead, Fred Saito took notes from it for Martin Caidin, who then flushed out the notes as he saw fit. Much of what is in Samauri is complete fiction, spawned from Caidin's imagination. Best see Henry Sakaida's book "Winged Samauri" for details on this, but whole sections of Samauri were concocted by Caidin--including Sakai's last flight in 1945.

Regards,

John Bruning

I find this very sad news for I really enjoyed the book.

Rick

[corbulo]

Originally posted by johnbruning
Samauri is a very suspect book, so be careful when you use it.

Where can one purchase an exact translation of what Sakai said?

[johnbruning]

Unfortunately, there is no direct translation of any of Sakai's books. The best one available is the Sakai biography written by Henry Sakaida. "Winged Samauri" debunks much of the the things Caidin made up in "Samauri."

JohnB

[Feinder]

FWIW -

I sent two attacks by lonely B-17 squadrons again today. The results were quite plausable.

Both cases, there were about 15 B-17s (at 100', he has no flak unit there) intercepted by LRCAP of 5 - 7 Zeros.

The text file showed one Zero damaged in each engagement.

My B-17s were fully rested, but would have had higer fatigue on the 2nd strike (we're playing 2-day turns). But 1 Zero damaged (later confirmed destroyed on Intel), seems very reasonable to me.

And FWIW, I had 4 B-17 damaged. Altho not reflected in the txt file, they were probably operational damages due to the fact that 2 days worth of bombing missions from Cairns to Buna will rack up about 45 fatigue.

Knavey, may your guys in Buna starve to death until the Austrailan 3rd Division rolls over them.
-F-

[zed]

Originally posted by johnbruning
Unfortunately, there is no direct translation of any of Sakai's books. The best one available is the Sakai biography written by Henry Sakaida. "Winged Samauri" debunks much of the the things Caidin made up in "Samauri."

JohnB

Unfortunately it is out of print. I will try some neighborhood libraries. I suspected the ending was fictitious for a long time, because his wife-to-be 1st cousin was almost ready to commit hari-kari when Sakai walks in the door to announce he is safe.

[johnbruning]

I'm not sure about the suicide thing, but as I recall, Caidin has Sakai fly his last combat mission against B-29s. In reality, his last fight took place in daylight against a B-32 Dominator. Incidentally, I was at the National Archives a while back and stumbled across a whole bunch of color film of B-32 Dominators in the Philippines right at the end of the war. Pretty amazing stuff!

I don't know if this is true, but I've been interviewing a veteran who met Sakai numerous times in the States during various ace-related functions. He related to me that Sakai, in a sober moment, mentioned to him that his first wife starved to death during the war. He said his wife was so dedicated to the war effort that she just stopped eating so others could have her rations when the food shortages became so severe. At the same time, she worked herself ragged in a factory. Like I said, I don't know if that's true, but if it is, it would go a long way to explaining much of Sakai's post-war bitterness.

Johnb

PS: Try Powells.com for a copy of Winged Samauri. They usually have it. Powells is one of the largest used bookstores on the West Coast. It takes up an entire city block in Portland, Oregon.

[Attack Condor]

I've been reading "Flying Forts" and I'll say one thing about Caidin, the man never met an adjective he didn't like ...

Another nice thing about this forum, in addition to the game advice, etc. is the wealth of information available from resources I hardly knew existed

[siRkid]

PS: Try Powells.com for a copy of Winged Samauri. They usually have it. Powells is one of the largest used bookstores on the West Coast. It takes up an entire city block in Portland, Oregon. [/B]

johnbruning,

What an incredible site. Thanks!

What do you do for a living that takes you to the national archives and gets you interviews with WWII personnel? Are you writing a book?

Rick

[zed]

The only successful way for the zero to attack was head on. The 13th Air Force found this out in 1942 and requested additional machine guns placed in the front.

[entemedor]

Knavey, we are seeing much less posting about air combat reports after v2.20, simply because now air combat is going so well as it will ever go. Thanks to Cap_and_gown, Grotius, Drongo, DoomedMantis, jrcar and others, who did hundreds of tests, air combat was at last finely tuned. I don't think it needs any more re-working.
Thanks to the new messages displayed, you can now follow air combats blow-by-blow if you want to; you can almost visualize the way some pilots fire from long-range, while others wait for a point-blank shot; morale has much to say there. Results are of course widely changing, as it should be, because so many factors are in play. Air combat is unforgiving if you don't rest your units enough; to fly with fatigue over 30 is to temp disaster if you find a really fresh opponent.
Of course you must expect severe losses the first time you attack a box of B17s, fresh from the homeland and with high morale. Some of these planes you see reported as damaged will never fly again; fatigue will mount, morale decrease, and suddenly one day, when you bounce them with a strong unit, you will have the satisfaction to see them turn back under fire.
There will always be the odd or even bizarre engagement; such things also happened in real life. Often the results will not be to our liking; but I have no doubts that now the system WORKS.
Cheers for Matrix and for the beta-testers who solved a really tricky puzzle.

Entemedor