European Campaign Mod for WITPAE System???

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: claystone
Well here is what i wrote in the other Thread under Mods I still havent found any takers who i would pay to have this Mod made.

Obviously can’t play with the game executable. That belongs to Matrix/2 By 3/Henderson Field. Copyright laws are very restrictive. It must be strictly a scenario based on the game engine – absolutely no possibility for changes.

And what are you paying for? A schlock scen file, or something useful? And if you want a professional scenario, how much will you interfere with what the people do? Ok, so map work, OOB definitions, TOE research, planes, ships, art for the foregoing; maybe 3 people, 2-3 months. 350-500 hours (roughly 1063 man-hours). That’s roughly $26,500 on a $25.00 per hour scale.

Will require a written contract, based on a mutually agreed upon Statement of Work. Change Orders will be a cost adder, with costs stated up front. If not agreed upon, they won’t happen. It will not include AI work. Alternative Dispute Resolution is mandatory and the American Arbitration Association will be specified in the contract.

$8,000 up front with $8,000 monthly progress payments. The residual due upon acceptance. You like, then send PM. I do not respond to gmail, yahoo, or other anonymous nonsense, so please include an official ISP email address.

[ed] Boy, that opened the overcoat about what we did for opportunity costs working the title; although most of us were way beyond the $25.00 per hour scale. And then some of us got old and retired and went further and continue to support the title. Hey !!! ... Who loves ya Baby ??!!!

I understand totally of how it would work, and yes for that kind of money, where i thought it would be around, i would make it my game to sell as well as playing it for myself. I have the funds to cover this cost with no problem and yes a contract and operating argreement would be drawn up to make it happen.

But first their work must be shown that they can perform and do this type of work. and also is anyone out there able willing to take it on.

[claystone_MatrixForum]

Symon...i did not receive your PM...


And if the developers of Witpae would like me to help fund WITE II, they can PM me right now i'll be ready to listen.


Listen, I'm just a Real Estate Developer out here in NYC that loves playing these games. I have no problem throwing my hat in the ring to help make a great game like WITPAE but in a European theater instead.

.

[wdolson]

I think most of the people who worked on AE would love to build a new game engine, but most of us have other commitments now. I'm in that boat. Since 2010 I've been working contract for one company with some side projects always clamoring for attention too.

If someone would pay me to develop a game, that would be cool, but at the moment it would be unethical to leave my primary customer hanging. It would take them a long time to train someone to replace me. It's a very complex system and I'm the only one who understands how the whole thing goes together.

Raising money would help make such a project happen, but another bottleneck is getting the band back together again.

Bill

[btd64]

I have been thinking about this for over 3 years now. In fact I have asked someone if they can build the map and data files to get it rolling. I have started to look at OOB's, naval units and squadrons for this project. I am just waiting at the moment....GP

Edit; I for one would be able to contribute cash on a monthly basis also providing my time for research.

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I think most of the people who worked on AE would love to build a new game engine, but most of us have other commitments now. I'm in that boat. Since 2010 I've been working contract for one company with some side projects always clamoring for attention too.

If someone would pay me to develop a game, that would be cool, but at the moment it would be unethical to leave my primary customer hanging. It would take them a long time to train someone to replace me. It's a very complex system and I'm the only one who understands how the whole thing goes together.

Raising money would help make such a project happen, but another bottleneck is getting the band back together again.

Bill

Hi Bill,

I would like to keep the same system just create a larger map that includes the eastern and western theater, along with inputting of course all the troops. The time frame to be 1941 till the end of the war.

I like how this game system plays and looks compare to the counter design system of WITE and WITW. So keep the template of WITPAE and create around it. Now, im no game programmer but i assume you can use this as your foundation.

[fcharton]

The problem with using AE as a basis for a game on the european theater is that it would need a major change of scale. At the current scale, Normandy is a 2x3 hex area, where you'd have two or three huge stacks, fighting for 60+ turns, before one finally retreats or is surrounded. The russian front is larger, but you'd find the same kind of huge stacks everywhere, which would make all the small unit detail we get in AE useless...

Note also that the heart of AE is the supply system, which is predicated upon the difficulty to supply one's troops, and the need to build infrastructure. This happens because the battlefield is either islands or landmasses with little transportation (and very rough terrain). Europe isn't so. And the focus on oil and resources only makes sense because they are the reason why WWII was fought in the Pacific (it was not the case in europe, or at least not to the same extent).

As a result, just making a new map and OOB wouldn't work. You'd need to adapt the engine, and it would be very close to a rewrite because the paradigm would change. And even so, I suspect the end result would be disappointing : the supply model, which is what "works" in AE, would be so different, that a lot of the AE feeling we all love would be lost in the process. I think "AE in space" would in fact work better than "AE does Europe".

Of course, there are very good ideas in AE, and a lot of knowledge and research in the team and among the players, but what you ask for is closer to developping a new piece of software than just modding AE. And this makes the problem of building a team even more difficult, as you need a fairly large set of skills.

This said, I'd be very happy to contribute to such a projet...

Francois

[wdolson]

Extending the map into other theaters creates another problem. Currently the database for units is fairly close to full and adding much more would be impossible. A war in Europe would also have to institute borders and neutrality that the current game system doesn't really handle.

As mentioned, supply and resources were also a different situation in Europe than in the Pacific. Germany was in a constant struggle for enough oil after the war with the USSR started, but for most other things, Germany could get what it needed either at home or near home (such as trading with Sweden). They did have some desperate shortages of some resources needed in limited quantities, but it was similar to the needs Japan had for some other limited quantity resources.

The siege of Britain was a situation of getting military material in, but also feeding the population too. I think the supply moving across the Atlantic would have to reflect the needs for feeding the civilian population as well as the military needs.

Some others have pointed out the hex scale is probably too small for Europe. Another issue is just about every single hex on the continent that isn't a mountain is a potential base. In North Africa and the steppes of the USSR, ad hoc airfields were set up just about anywhere needed. Planes would be ferried back to a field with more facilities for maintenance. The game engine currently can't do that. Damaged planes are always grounded.

I'm not saying that a European game would be impossible with this engine, but it would need some work.

A full world game would be interesting. It would probably take more than a day a turn to play, but I think you would have to break up the game data into theaters with units transferable between theater data bases. Then as you switch theaters, it loads up the data bases for that theater. To play with everything in one set of data bases would probably make everything way too slow.

Bill

[Numdydar]

I'll start saving up for the 2025 release then [:D]

[Numdydar]

ORIGINAL: fcharton

The problem with using AE as a basis for a game on the european theater is that it would need a major change of scale. At the current scale, Normandy is a 2x3 hex area, where you'd have two or three huge stacks, fighting for 60+ turns, before one finally retreats or is surrounded. The russian front is larger, but you'd find the same kind of huge stacks everywhere, which would make all the small unit detail we get in AE useless...

Note also that the heart of AE is the supply system, which is predicated upon the difficulty to supply one's troops, and the need to build infrastructure. This happens because the battlefield is either islands or landmasses with little transportation (and very rough terrain). Europe isn't so. And the focus on oil and resources only makes sense because they are the reason why WWII was fought in the Pacific (it was not the case in europe, or at least not to the same extent).

As a result, just making a new map and OOB wouldn't work. You'd need to adapt the engine, and it would be very close to a rewrite because the paradigm would change. And even so, I suspect the end result would be disappointing : the supply model, which is what "works" in AE, would be so different, that a lot of the AE feeling we all love would be lost in the process. I think "AE in space" would in fact work better than "AE does Europe".

Of course, there are very good ideas in AE, and a lot of knowledge and research in the team and among the players, but what you ask for is closer to developping a new piece of software than just modding AE. And this makes the problem of building a team even more difficult, as you need a fairly large set of skills.

This said, I'd be very happy to contribute to such a projet...

Francois

People are complaining about the 10 mile hexes in WitW so I can only imaging how they would feel about 45 mile hexes [:(]

Third Reich has a pretty large scale (65 miles?/hex) European map so that would give some idea of what the map would look like on a WitP scale. Not much room at all. Basically a WWI experience versus WWII. Italy one or two hexes wide. That sound like fun Not.

You might want to take a look at this http://schwerpunkt.wargamer.com/Eurdesc.html

As this is 7.5 miles per hex. Plus, while not the WitP system it is still pretty detailed.

Map scale is a very big deal in games. Which is one reason there are so few games covering the entire world. Paradox gets away with the HoI series by ignoring scale completely and using provinces. This way a lot of the large useless areas of the map can be huge sized while more densely areas can be made smaller.

WiF board game had two different scales for the ETO and PTO. When a unified map for the computer version was approved by ADG, people cried foul because the PTO now had more area but still the combatants had the same number of troops to cover the larger area.

The point of this is to model the entire world (or convert WitP scale to the ETO) one area is going to get shortchanged using hexes. I honestly think that the War in Europe (7.5 miles) really work well for the ETO. Much better than the 10 miles in WitW. Of course even in the ETO, 10 miles/hex works great in WitE. Again due to the large scale of the East compared to the West. So even within the confines of a single theater scale can (and should) vary.

Now if you wanted to capture the ETO (especially the Western/Desert fronts) experience, then than should determine the scale for the entire game. Yes the PTO will be 4-5 times bigger along with a huge amount of nothing. But a smaller scale in hexes will at least allow the important activities in the ETO to be played out correctly versus one or two giant stacks pounding it out turn after turn which is what you would get with a 45 mile/hex [:(]

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: oaltinyay

can it be possible to mod galley warfare into this map ? [:D]

Wooden ships and iron men? Too, please.[:D][:D]

Love this game. Thought of getting a PBEM old-fashioned board game started a few years ago.

[rustysi]

Your map reminded me of the AH Third Reich game. A scale not compatible with a game like AE on the ground. This mainly due to the scale of the combat forces in the west. Just look at the abstraction Avalon Hill did and I think you'll get the picture. I don't really have a good alternate solution for you, but I'm afraid that if you attempt what you're contemplating you'll be sadly dissapointed.

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Extending the map into other theaters creates another problem. Currently the database for units is fairly close to full and adding much more would be impossible. A war in Europe would also have to institute borders and neutrality that the current game system doesn't really handle.

As mentioned, supply and resources were also a different situation in Europe than in the Pacific. Germany was in a constant struggle for enough oil after the war with the USSR started, but for most other things, Germany could get what it needed either at home or near home (such as trading with Sweden). They did have some desperate shortages of some resources needed in limited quantities, but it was similar to the needs Japan had for some other limited quantity resources.

The siege of Britain was a situation of getting military material in, but also feeding the population too. I think the supply moving across the Atlantic would have to reflect the needs for feeding the civilian population as well as the military needs.

Some others have pointed out the hex scale is probably too small for Europe. Another issue is just about every single hex on the continent that isn't a mountain is a potential base. In North Africa and the steppes of the USSR, ad hoc airfields were set up just about anywhere needed. Planes would be ferried back to a field with more facilities for maintenance. The game engine currently can't do that. Damaged planes are always grounded.

I'm not saying that a European game would be impossible with this engine, but it would need some work.

A full world game would be interesting. It would probably take more than a day a turn to play, but I think you would have to break up the game data into theaters with units transferable between theater data bases. Then as you switch theaters, it loads up the data bases for that theater. To play with everything in one set of data bases would probably make everything way too slow.

Bill

Hey Bill,

Would it be better to just do mid size game like "The Battle for Normandy" where you can keep the hex distance the same as WITP ae.
or even 2 separate scenarios adding "Barbarossa" or most call "Case Blue". This way you are not doing the whole world map keeping to the system of WITP ae.

I brought this whole thing up and will be willing to help fund if and only if we can keep the same system idea as WITP ae, but if its going to turn into "War in the East" or War in the West" sytem by Gary Grigsby then its not for me since i already have those games and do not like.

Does what i suggest make sense and would it work with your Witp ae system, or am I speaking out of term?

If it can be done i'm ready to help make this happen now..

[Numdydar]

If you really want to improve things why not a WitP II versus trying to force a PTO scale into a ETO one?

Even with the Eastern Front the distance between Warsaw and Moscow is 717 miles which would be a whopping 16 hexes in WitP sacle. About 9 hexes to Leningrad/St Petersburg from Moscow. So you want to cover all of AGC/AGN in an approximate 16 x 9 hex area? Just think of the concentration of units in this small area that a player would need to deal with. Why on earth would you think that would be fun?

You really need to look at Third Reich as that has the entire ETO on just a slightly larger scale than what you propose. Here is a section if the TR map that shows Italy to give some idea of the scale we are talking about. Italy would only be about 25% bigger in a WitP scale.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

If you really want to improve things why not a WitP II versus trying to force a PTO scale into a ETO one?

Even with the Eastern Front the distance between Warsaw and Moscow is 717 miles which would be a whopping 16 hexes in WitP sacle. About 9 hexes to Leningrad/St Petersburg from Moscow. So you want to cover all of AGC/AGN in an approximate 16 x 9 hex area? Just think of the concentration of units in this small area that a player would need to deal with. Why on earth would you think that would be fun?

You really need to look at Third Reich as that has the entire ETO on just a slightly larger scale than what you propose. Here is a section if the TR map that shows Italy to give some idea of the scale we are talking about. Italy would only be about 25% bigger in a WitP scale.

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout. It just doesn't fit.

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

If you really want to improve things why not a WitP II versus trying to force a PTO scale into a ETO one?

Even with the Eastern Front the distance between Warsaw and Moscow is 717 miles which would be a whopping 16 hexes in WitP sacle. About 9 hexes to Leningrad/St Petersburg from Moscow. So you want to cover all of AGC/AGN in an approximate 16 x 9 hex area? Just think of the concentration of units in this small area that a player would need to deal with. Why on earth would you think that would be fun?

You really need to look at Third Reich as that has the entire ETO on just a slightly larger scale than what you propose. Here is a section if the TR map that shows Italy to give some idea of the scale we are talking about. Italy would only be about 25% bigger in a WitP scale.

Here is the map i'm suggesting which is from the boardgame "The Battle for Normandy" by GMT games which i'm currently playing now.

https://boardgamegeek.com/images/boardg ... ndy/page/2

What would be the issue with this? If you can handle the pieces on Vassal or a boardgame why would it be so impossible on a witp ae system? The infantry counter can be the same as being used now. Which you can break off divisions from each counter.

Maybe there is some confusion. I'm looking to do a european theater like they did for the pacfic theater. Nothing is impossible in business i've learned. Where there is a will here is a way. In my business we find ways to make it happen.

[rustysi]

OK, listen. IMHO you're not going to be able to shoehorn the European Theater into the AE game engine and have a fun game. Its apples and oranges. AE is about naval warfare, the European Theater was only about naval combat on a somewhat intermittent schedule. Of course the Battle of the Atlantic being the exception, but that's another kettle of fish (pun intended). Look at the maps you're talking about, that's a much smaller scale and from what I can see the unit scale is at the battalion level. TBH it has the look of WitW/WitE, though on a different scale. That said I'm not quite sure what your objections are to that type of game. I would think that you need to flesh out your concept and see if what you want to do is feasible. I think you would need to start fresh and design from the ground up, but again I'm not 100% sure what you seek. Is it more of a naval flavor in an ETO game?

[Numdydar]

yes. The scale in BfN is 1,270 YARDS/hex. I calculated that 60 BfN hexes would fit into a single Bfn hex. Imagine all the pieces in the BfN game crammed into the total number of hexes in BfN for all maps divided by 60. Then imagine using the current AE interface to interact with all of them. This does NOT sound like much fun to me.

If you want to take the WitP system and use it on the same scale as BfN, you have just as many issues. Ranges need to redone, number of ships increased (since the scale is smaller), etc. Plus 1 day turns in the ETO

I (and a lot of other people here) would MUCH rather have a WitP II versus something you are discussing. So if you really have the funds to support game development, I would suggest you use them in a way that you would have a huge amount of support for versus something that only would appeal to a few.

Now if you want to develop a game just for yourself to enjoy, then go for it. Who knows it may turn out better than what we think now. But I would have no interest in a WitP scale ETO game. I would be very interested in an even smaller scale WitP maybe 20 miles/hex [X(] Of course if you really wanted to help out 2by3 and Matrix, scale it down to 10 miles/hex and then we can combine WitE/WitW (plus the other ETO games) into one massive WWII game [:D]

[rustysi]

then we can combine WitE/WitW (plus the other ETO games) into one massive WWII game

Now we're talkin'.

[CaptBeefheart]

I'd also like to humbly ask for a WITP-2 development. As one of the few weaknesses of WITP-AE in my mind is the CBI theater, meaning large-scale ground combat, I'm not sure adapting this engine for Europe would turn out well.

Still, it's your money, and I agree that where there is a will, there's a way. Good luck!

Cheers,
CC

[claystone_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

yes. The scale in BfN is 1,270 YARDS/hex. I calculated that 60 BfN hexes would fit into a single Bfn hex. Imagine all the pieces in the BfN game crammed into the total number of hexes in BfN for all maps divided by 60. Then imagine using the current AE interface to interact with all of them. This does NOT sound like much fun to me.

If you want to take the WitP system and use it on the same scale as BfN, you have just as many issues. Ranges need to redone, number of ships increased (since the scale is smaller), etc. Plus 1 day turns in the ETO

I (and a lot of other people here) would MUCH rather have a WitP II versus something you are discussing. So if you really have the funds to support game development, I would suggest you use them in a way that you would have a huge amount of support for versus something that only would appeal to a few.

Now if you want to develop a game just for yourself to enjoy, then go for it. Who knows it may turn out better than what we think now. But I would have no interest in a WitP scale ETO game. I would be very interested in an even smaller scale WitP maybe 20 miles/hex [X(] Of course if you really wanted to help out 2by3 and Matrix, scale it down to 10 miles/hex and then we can combine WitE/WitW (plus the other ETO games) into one massive WWII game [:D]

Fair enough....

Now can we get this done???...