Campaign for South Vietnam

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larryfulkerson
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by larryfulkerson »

ORIGINAL: Raindem
...The problem with 3.6 had nothing to do with air combat. It had to do with hex possession. If a guerilla unit right-clicked on an enemy unit, as if to attack it, it would immediately change the defender's hex possession to the attacker's side. This happens before combat is even resolved. As you can imagine that's a deal breaker for a scenario like CSV.
Right, right........it's all coming back to me now. And I remember posting something about it on the development forum. Time for me
to do some follow up and so on. Thanks.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Raindem »

Thanks Larry. Appreciate it.

Bill, sorry for the hijack. Back to you.
Grab them by the balls. Their hearts and minds will follow.
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sapper32
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by sapper32 »

Looking forward to following this AAR,Good luck with it Narses its a bit of a monster game too keep your eyes focused on.

The battle of Medjerda is almost forgotten,but was fought against highly disciplined German troops and blasted a route straight to Tunis it was a perfect infiltration battle and should be remembered as the best fought British battle of the war.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

DMZ Early Feb 1965
In the early turns near the DMZ I have the 1st ARVN Division fall back behind the river at Dong Ha. This is not as critical in scenario versions 4.0 and 5.0 as it was in older versions. In older versions an NVA division started in attack positions near Con Thien and could hit parts of the ARVN 1st division before they could fortify. More NVA used to follow quickly. ARVN could expect to lose Quang Tri city and more than one regiment of the 1st to an aggressive NVA player who had skill and a little luck.
In versions 4.0 and 5.0 there is just one NVA division to worry about and as I’ve stated before its three infantry regiments come in one at a time on turns 2, 3 and 4. They get substantial replacements but there will be no substantial NVA reinforcing units north of the DMZ for the first year (another NVA division and independent regt arrive for every 15 commitment points the US spends). In spite of this I will still abandon strip from Dong Ha north. I‘m doing this because I do not wish to fight a linear battle in an area where the NVA is about as well supplied as they can be and are so close to sanctuary. I would much rather move the battle south and both shorten my supply lines and lengthen his. It will also force the NVA infantry (and more importantly their arty) to move away from their sanctuaries if they wish to engage. Then they can be cut off when sufficient airmobile troops become available.
This does give the NVA uncontested hexes that they can convert for potential victory points. There is only a 20% chance of this occurring in Quang Tri province however. One reason I will accept less than optimal battles in other areas is so that I can choose my fights in Quang Tri. Here I want decisions to be based more on operational considerations than on potential pacification events. There are also only a limited number of hexes he can convert in this area. Unlike the VC guerillas who can chose to not convert hexes or only convert the hex they are sitting in the NVA regulars change possession of hexes in their zones of control. The NVA will tend to run out of chances to score pacification VPs more quickly. For much of the game on much of the map both sides will be maneuvering or fighting to manipulate the chances for pacification VPs. In Quang Tri I will be happy for the NVA to alter his tactical movements based on pacification because I won’t be. In this province it will always be about minimizing my casualties and maximizing his.


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On the second turn the NVA finish off the Regional Forces company I abandoned at Con Thien. I also will not contest Dong Ha. I just hope he will activate the RF unit there so I can save it. I am unwilling to be have my regular ARVN units bombarded or attacked at the river crossing. For now I will wait behind the river and use air and arty to wear down the NVA while he clears Dong Ha. I do not expect him to try to cross the river with just a single NVA division. At least not while I have most of the 1ST ARVN there.
Note the Marine HQ near Hue in the extreme SE corner. The leading elements of the 3rd Marines shipped in immediately even though their supplies and readiness were only 50%. They positioned themselves around Hue, Da Nang and Hoi An in high supply areas.
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Hyding
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

TURN 3: March 1965
EEV TOTAL: 14 EXPECTED INCREASE: None
VICTORY TOTAL: +1 Free World Allies
PACIFICATION VPs TOTAL: FWA 2/NLF 1 THIS TURN: FWA 1/NLF 1 (first NFL pacification pt in Quang Tri)

At this point in the game the FWA are scoring one automatic VP a turn for its pacification programs. This will gradually increase to three a turn. The exception to this is that the number of automatic points decreases as the US player approaches 60 total VPs. At 60 VPs the US player actually subtracts a commitment point from the EEV clock every three turns.

Well my call to not contest northern Quang Tri yields immediate dividends to Curt. I really can’t complain over the first two turns he should average one VP for the number of areas he has converted a hex and held it through my turn. A half point a turn might not seem like much but remember there can be as many as 132 turns in this game. The VC have just got the marching orders and are just beginning to ramp up. I think seven points from pacification were the most I recall seeing in a turn but 4-5 are not uncommon. A country wide offensive (TET, Easter of the final push) could potentially AVERAGE 12 points a turn for the NLF. Of course the 1-3 points the FWA get for free would be subtracted from that. So the whole game potential for pacification points is huge considering the total of objective points is only 200. The NLF also cannot afford to let the FWAs crank out their automatic points uncontested for long once they reach 3 per turn.

In I Corps an additional regt of the 308th enters Quang Tri and the HQ is also noted doing so in the replay. The 308ths arty bombards the RF company in Dong Ha leaving it gutted but alive. Unfortunately bombardment attacks do not activate the fixed regional militia that will take a ground attack. The company can neither fortify nor withdraw. I’ll bet those remaining two squads wish they could have just stuck to fishing or farming. They might have avoided getting drafted into the ARVN regulars but that hometown/part time soldiering is starting to look mighty dangerous in Quang Tri province. They have done their job though. The NVA unit doing the spotting is located by Dong Ha’s patrols (ZOC) and will pay a much higher price.
The US 3rd Marine divisional artillery move north to Quang Tri City where they can bombard the NVA Regt near Dong Ha from there they can engage the NVA with their longer range guns and be out of range of NVA arty next turn. The 1st ARVN HQ shifts west from Quang Tri City so its longer range guns can engage and where all of its guns can support the western part of the river line. In addition the newly arrived US cruiser taskforce takes up positions off the coast to bombard near Dong Ha. The South Vietnamese destroyers move within range of an NVA regt noted on the bridge near Con Thien. The only problem is that the 308th’s arty has disappeared. They will get a pass this turn. None of these units fire in the 1st combat round and the ARVN 1st and the naval units break-off before the end of the turn. The ARVN do so to dig for protection and to support the river line and the navy to avoid any potential attempt by the NVA to use their arty as coastal defense guns. At least some air units from the 13th Air division hit the NVA with direct attacks from first to last. The 13th has switched its priority from the VC in the south to the visible NVA units. The divisional guns of the 3rd Marines also continue surge operations. I inflict 40-50% on those two regts viewed as a whole but the NVA already have the rifle strength to replace twice that and that’s not considering the squads that will return to the replacement pool because the units were not isolated. 60-100 rifle squads and assorted supporting units for 8 light rifle squads still seems like a win to me. But is it worth the diversion of air from the south?




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Hyding
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

Text removed obsolete once previous post was edited.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

Curt can only fire at the naval units if he can spot them. I will usually end the turn outside the range of any arty thought to be in the area or place myself where the NVA arty will be very vulnerable if they go for a shot. Occasionally however it might be worth a gamble that I won't be spotted or I just decide to except the possible exchange. I just don't want to become completely predictable. I will frequently shift after firing so that if Curt can't see them he will not know if they are in supporting range of my units or far down the coast covering another area. He will seldom know who bombarded or supported my attacks but he will see the ships in the combat results if they provided defensive support for me. I just want him to fear the entire coast if he can't see all my ships. I might defend the same coastal area several turns in a row but more often I will frequently shift to another area just so he does not know. Deception is a more often a tool for the NLF but shifting tactics and priorities is needed for the FWA also. The more he has to consider the more likely he is to miss something. The ships just take a couple of clicks a turn.

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Hyding
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

T3 Quang Nam March 1965

I expected a VC Bn in either Quang Nam or Quang Nghai and I am still expecting a VC regiment near here in the next couple of turns. The VC bn caught here showed up on the replay and was easily caught by landing on the hex it left. Once it was located the 3rd Marine units that shipped in last turn use airmobile movement to surround it in conjunction with battalions and arty from the 2nd ARVN. The Marines still have not built up their readiness and supply yet but there are no other airmobile units available so the US president authorizes the first offensive use of US ground forces in March 1965 (no game effect just a milestone). Lo and behold the 2nd was active the first two turns. It will actually be active on the 3rd turn also. I have never had the 2nd active on the first three turns for me before. Additional incoming marine units fill the defensive role of the units on this op. Expecting more activity along the coast the marines and 2nd ARVN try to garrison cities with more than one VP along the coast. The 9th Marine Regt ships into II Corps focusing in Binh Dinh province.

In the actual fight the losses are essentially equal in spite of getting a good measure of the remaining air strikes and arty from the 2nd ARVN. Equal is not an exceptable ratio. All hexes are reconverted and a 45% chance of a NLF VP is avoided.


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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

Image moved to next page with text. See post # 31.

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larryfulkerson
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by larryfulkerson »

The level of detail in your reporting is outstanding and I highly
encourage you to continue. The war is more real when you
know the details. Thanks.
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Hyding
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

Turn 3 March 1965: III Corps and IV Corps

1: The VC Bn that took Cam Lanh last turn moves out of the loose cordon around it and heads northeast into the marshes. The Rangers that had been blocking to the north trail it
until another Ranger company airmobs in to form another cordon. The 7th ARVN division artillery and HQ reoccupy Cam Lanh and are in position for the bulk of its arty to engage
the VC. The furthest rangers are out of range of defensive support though and will have to rely on air support if attacked.

Early attacks show that the VC bn here only have about half strength remaining after the damage done to it last turn. Even though I did not bring up the nearby infantry
from the 7th ARVN (I wanted them located so they could react back towards Moc Hoa or the central delta) I will try to finish this unit off if preparatory fires go well. In the
end the Bn is destroyed but for some reason there is no advance and the hex is not converted. It will convert automatically next turn for being in my uncontested zone of control
but that will be after pacification checks and VP awards. At least I suffered no loss.

2: The remnants of two VC companies turn out to total less than a company and are easily killed but they just would not fold to an RBC. It may have cost me a single squad. Many
of the units involved here in Long An last turn lifted out early to Long Khanh province there are still six maneuver units tied down for the turn. Once I saw how weak the VC were
I could have lifted the Marines out and replaced them with some ranger companies. (Airmobile movement is awesome. Even after multiple combat rounds you can be very mobile
as long as you are lifting units that have not moved or attacked yet. In a perfect world you should keep some kind of airmobile reserve to take advantage of opportunities or to fix
disasters or things you just overlooked until late.) I felt that the rangers were needed where they were however so I sucked it up.

3: In Long Khanh province it took a bit of searching from the first units to lift in before I found the VC unit. I could not get good enough intel to determine its size so it took
even more patrolling to make sure that it had not split up. No artillery is available so I had to rely on air attacks to attrite the VC before attacking them. This was the focus of
almost all air not bombing the NVA this turn. Results were poor and in the end I decided I did not want to risk the likely exchange rates involved in an attack to finish them
this turn. I take consolation in the fact that none killed here next turn will go to Curt’s replacement pool.

4. About half the 173rd Abn Brigade arrives at ports near Saigon along with their skeleton helicopter unit. A battalion of these and a battalion of MPs move to bolster the
defenses of Saigon. Saigon has four battalions and the Chief of Staff unit to defend its self. It is proof against anything except a multi-regimental attack. This early in
the game that’s not coming before I can react. I still need to replace the screen I like to keep around the city. That and part of the interior defenses have been pulled
away to the fighting in Long An and Long Khanh.



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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

The level of detail in your reporting is outstanding and I highly
encourage you to continue. The war is more real when you
know the details. Thanks.

Thanks Larry. I have had some other posts and some PMs and emails so I guess my rambling is acceptable.
Actually for all you do keeping the forum active and for all the AARs/tests you do I would do it just to entertain you.

If Curt runs this long enough I might actually get half-assed at screenies.

Curt's next move will put us back at a 12 turn separation between game and AAR. That is a separation I am comfortable with maintaining.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

The deployment in this area has changed so much by turn 15 that I'll share this.





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Throughout much of their range my heliports overlap each other and those areas of overlap have much greater lift available. Eventually as more lift units and replacements arrive they will be distributed to provide more uniform coverage, provide surge potential and to fill in any gray areas around the border regions.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

Limited sealift (and a missed click on the 173rd HQ) have left a bn of the 173rd its HQ/arty, the armored cav troop and the 3rd Marine armored bn still awaiting transport out of country.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

On turns two and three my air assistant was turned on. I have never used it before from 2007 till now. I actually could not figure out why my air units kept wanting to attack Hanoi. I would turn the attacks off but every attack phase some more of them would try for a run. I managed to miss shutting down one attack each turn. On the bright side I sweep the MIGs aside and they are now a non issues for a bit. On the other hand the AAA hit the attacking aircraft pretty hard. The numbers involved were small but several air units drop into reorg. My F-111 and the SVAF C-119s are hurt and neither get any replacements for quite some time. Once I figure out what was going on (with Curt's gracious help) I make certain that will not reoccur..

The losses were small but it seems like the air units I would least want to send "downtown" were the ones that the air assistant would send.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

I was hoping Curt would send me a turn yesterday for my birthday but no such luck.

Just wanted to post something to get rid of the 666 post views. Clean up my luck before combat resolutions ya know.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by larryfulkerson »

Happy birthday William. And I wanted to discuss something you said about the
heli-lift and reinforcements. You said you wanted to distribute the helicopters
and the reinforcements uniformly so that the coverage was distributed evenly
across the country-side and I'm wondering if you might want to use a different
distribution coverage plan. I'm thinking that you might want to beef up those
high traffic areas at the expense of those out-of-the-way places that never
see much action. Like the areas where the VC sneak across the border from
the Ho Chi Minh trail to those emplacements closer to the border that are
easy to take down. So that some areas have more lift than some other areas.
I'm thinking it's justified. Just a thought.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

Let me point out that I said MORE uniform coverage. Perfect uniformity isn't really achievable or as you point out even desirable.

What I do want is the ability to move a purely airmobile force that can create a secure and airtight airmobile envelopment of a NVA or VC regt. That takes at least six battalions and at least some supporting artillery. A force like that will be needed whether the regt stays intact or splits apart. The ability to move at least one fire brigade like this almost anywhere in the country without preparation is an essential goal for me. There has to be something left over for other operations at the same time. As of turn four I can do that through much of the country but large areas can only be covered by brigade+ lift. For now that is sufficient since I have tried to make sure the areas with lower lift capacity are in areas with low threat or that can rely on a lot of units using conventional movement. An example of this is northern I Corps. With no overlap covering this area I sent the lift unit with the largest lift capacity here. This would still be insufficient to react to NVA regts and activity at multiple location simultaneously. This is a small operating area however and will tend to have a high density of US and ARVN units. Units in Quang Tri City can use conventional movement to reach almost anywhere in Quang Tri and Thau Thien provinces. Extra lift here is more often needed to save readiness/supply burn or to envelop really large (divisional) concentrations of enemy.

I do want the regt busting fire brigade lift to become the uniform MINIMUM lift though almost the entire country. The 12th Avn arrives with six lift units. These vary in lift capacity from 400+ to around a 1000 lift points (yeah my helicopter lift exceeds my sealift at this point in the game). I'm not going to get into the exact amount and location of my lift but....Four of these units and the slowly growing 17th lift are for general area coverage. The other two are for flexibility and to cover areas of high need. Since I invested so much in getting lift (it cost as many commitment points as all the US ground units I have committed so far) it will seldom be a problem it is the troops to lift that is an issue. For the near future by the time I can mass the troops to take advantage of increased lift I can have the lift in place to move them. At least the extra lift makes the ARVN marines and para more useful than they would have been with the limited early lift in versions 4.0 and 5.0.
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by Hyding »

A little more esoteric stuff about airmobile lift in this scenario.

Some of these points are assumption based on experience if anyone know better please share.

It is only about 160 hexes from the DMZ to the bottom tip of An Xuyen province. Since transport helicopters have an operating range of 40 hexes. They can provide lift in a circle 80 hexes across. So theoretically two heliports could provide lift to the entire country (the whole hexes to the east and west screw that up). I have never quite gotten the size of units lifted and the lift available to total up exactly when I try to track it like I can with sea and air movement. It is always close though. Does anyone know if there is there another factor (like range actually carried) that factors in or was I just guesstimating wrong.

In addition a lift unit can lift a unit 40 hexes away and then move it 40 hexes further for a total range away from the copters base of 80 hexes. Of course since the copters can only go 40 hexes to pick it up next turn for a return trip. The ground unit will have to walk halfway back to the Avn unit unless another avn unit is available to provide lift or and unit moves in provide lift. You can move units outside your range to pick them back up. More often you see units moving from areas of high lift to areas of low lift and having to shuttle back.

Other than where to place the lift units here are some points you might want to consider in managing your lift capacity.

1. You do not choose which avn units provide lift for any particular airmobile move. The system does that.

2. I am fairly certain ground units draw lift from the closest lift unit first (have not adequately tested).

3. If you plan on moving lift units do it before any lifts are made. Once a lift unit is used it cannot move that turn. Also if it moves it cannot provide lift.

4. Make it a habit to move units with only one possible source of lift first. You don't want a unit with multiple lift sources in reach to use the last of a another units lift when the other unit has only one source of lift.

5. Make priority moves first. Don't get caught moving a unit back for 3 extra points of supply and not having the points to garrison a city or cut off the VC. Except the first turn or so I don't see anyone using a calculator to figure ALL of their lifts so play smart just in case. You will quickly develop a sense for this.
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larryfulkerson
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RE: Campaign for South Vietnam

Post by larryfulkerson »

Hey General: how about a sentence or two about your overall strategic plans for the entire country? You know,
how you expect the game to unfold as the years pass.
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