Why wargaming can never grow

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Raindog101
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Post by Raindog101 »

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Why has ASL never been brought to the PC?
Actually it has been, it's called VASL.

http://www.vasl.org/vassal/Download.html

Not just a "version of ASL", it actually IS ASL.

But any ASLer like me will just say, it might just as well be the ASL logo on a copy of Steel Panthers.

When you look at ASL and you look at Steel Panthers, there isn't enough difference to merit the effort to make yet another game that will have to mirror Steel Panthers.

Wait a second, someone is indeed doing that, hehe Its going to be called Combat Leader.

All that ASL is, and with luck it will leap out of WW2 successfully.

Cool. I thought ASL would have been about one 10 man squad only. TY for info
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Matt Erickson
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Post by Matt Erickson »

All this stuff just seems like apples and oranges....worrying about attracting wargamers...forget it,This is'nt about selling soap
wargamers will come the natural way...because they like them...when I saw my first spi game it took me two seconds to realise after looking at the back of the box,no screen shot here,to know this was for me!
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Marc von Martial
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Post by Marc von Martial »

Originally posted by Matt Erickson
All this stuff just seems like apples and oranges....worrying about attracting wargamers...forget it,This is'nt about selling soap
wargamers will come the natural way...because they like them...when I saw my first spi game it took me two seconds to realise after looking at the back of the box,no screen shot here,to know this was for me!


We´re talking PC games here not board games ;).
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BrubakerII
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Post by BrubakerII »

Ironically Marc it is the very (perceived) nemesis of the wargamer - the marketing department - that the genre probably relies on to survive. Small time companies producing good games never have the money to get the people or 'eye candy' they need until they sign over their souls ;) It must be a real b*tch trying to maintain that 'street cred' and yet put the stuff into games that people want to see (ala this thread).

You guys are the best middle ground I have come across yet - you go girl. May the money (therefore development) go on forever.

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Marc von Martial
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Post by Marc von Martial »

Originally posted by BrubakerII
Ironically Marc it is the very (perceived) nemesis of the wargamer - the marketing department - that the genre probably relies on to survive. Small time companies producing good games never have the money to get the people or 'eye candy' they need until they sign over their souls ;) It must be a real b*tch trying to maintain that 'street cred' and yet put the stuff into games that people want to see (ala this thread).

You guys are the best middle ground I have come across yet - you go girl. May the money (therefore development) go on forever.

Brubaker


You would be surprised by the trade offs we have to do in the graphics department *soob*soob* :(
Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

We are talking PC games not board games....

Actually we are talking wargames I thought?

The people that made VASL have made an interesting statement.

We do not wish to use our computers to play yet another computer game, we want our computers to be the tool they were meant to be.

I have not yet aggressively pursued VASL as of yet, I have the software, but I have not felt like I was backed up against the wall totally yet.

I am of the opinion though, that eventually there will come a break with the board gamer crowd and the crowd that insists you can never have to much audio visual glamour in a wargame.

Companies will succeed or fail best dertimined by how well they identify EXACTLY which direction they want to see as their focus.

I keep wandering outside of Matrix assuming that Matrix's example might make a difference. But my confidence in others outside of Matrix is not rooted on rock solid ground yet.
Matrix to me has shown they understand what a turn based game is about, and they seem able to demonstrate they know fully what the other genres are about.

The only thing not currently present here at Matrix, is a forum section devoted to board games.
In my opinion, this could be a matter they could elect to change at the snap of a finger.

But I recognise Matrix is a business concern and not a wargaming lovin zone. Anything here at Matrix has to earn its keep (or so I would expect at least).

Is there any actual interest at Matrix, in being a vehicle for board game sales? I am not asking Matrix to make em, that is a lot of custom work load. But I like doing business with people I know, and I have done business with Matrix before. I trust them now.

It's just an idea.

Being a known retailer in the best of wargaming is a nice feather in ones cap eh. Being known to retail quality wargames be they board or computer would be a nice accomplishment (in my opinion).

Just wondering eh.

It would not be something I expected to see Matrix jump into rapidly. But as it goes, I only know of two online connections to the world of board games I am prepared to mention, those being MMP and Columbia Games. I have bought their goods and know them to be solid products.

I won't be miserable though, if Matrix says they have zero interest in marketing in any fashion board games. But it would be a sad loss if Matrix decided to not use their well established name, and be a reliable vehicle for moving board games as well.

I keep secretly hoping Matrix some day ends up being the next leading name in our hobby.
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Marc von Martial
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Post by Marc von Martial »

We are talking PC games not board games....
Actually we are talking wargames I thought?


When Joe started his thread he made reference to Kursk43 and how "ugly" it is as he thinks. He´s post was/is merely about PC Wargames. Forgive him the mistake to just talk about the PC when mentioning wargames ;).
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Post by Marc von Martial »

The only thing not currently present here at Matrix, is a forum section devoted to board games.


Since we don not produce them there´s no need for that. You can allways go to Military Gamer for a forum dedicated to Board gaming.
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Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

Well Marc, threads being unpredictable creatures, and I have seen Joe's threads before, I was going my past experiences.

That he didn't mention board games specifically doesn't mean he has no interest in them specifically. That is up to him to say I suppose.

That Matrix has no link to board games at this time could be mere whim, I have no way of knowing, which is why I mentioned it.

I remember when I first encountered Matrix, and the site didn't have a fraction of what it has now.

It's all been uphill to me though.

Today there is no board game forum, tomorrow that could change. But I don't own the site, so it's no like I have any inside access eh :)

Some of my best forum reads, have in many cases, been material that was only slightly connected to the original thread purpose.

I have encountered a lot of cool stuff while wandering forums.
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Post by AlBW »

I bought "Fulda Gap" from HPS and was not
so impressed with it,...but it falls short, no sea war, no politics, no events,not a whole map of west + east germany, parts of
the surounding countries like belgium,danmark,
netherlands,france e.t.c. missing the biggest drawback
IMHO you have single tank OR infantry units, but no
combined (spelling??) forces, the air war is also
not so good modelled.
At the scale Fulda'85 operates, which is company/battalion you won't find these things, Frank. Also, at the area & operations you want covered, it truly would be a "monster" PC game. I suggest you find something on the divisional level to suit your wishes.

Regarding graphics, it's a non-issue really. Wargames were never about presenting a "pretty picture" but presenting a history-based military problem which requires a solution. That is something that likely will never appeal to a large segment of the population. Requires too much "thinking" :rolleyes: I think if one would look at the demographics of the average PC wargamer, they would generally be in their late '20's or older, so the notion that somehow, somone needs to produce a true wargame that would draw in someone in the under 25-year old group is not a very effective way of enlarging the wargaming population. What needs to be done, & I believe is being done now, is that games are being produced and improved and which appeal to the older gamer who is tired of the mindless shoot-em-up games that are graphically good but do not challenge the intellect in that same way that wargames do.

My final word is that companies such as HPS (and Matrix too! :D ) are doing things right, and doing a good job. Believe me, I've been board and PC gaming for almost 30 years now & things now are they best they have been in a long, long time. So, quit bringing the rest of us down, Joe.
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Post by Frank W. »

Originally posted by AlBW
At the scale Fulda'85 operates, which is company/battalion you won't find these things, Frank. Also, at the area & operations you want covered, it truly would be a "monster" PC game. I suggest you find something on the divisional level to suit your wishes.
i don´t know any game of divisional level with the WW3 theme, except the old SSI + SSG stuff.

and i don´t said, that fulda gap is a bad game, but it could be much better. for shure (if i got time during my SPWAW seesions) i will try it again, because it was not cheap over here as US import.
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Post by SLAAKMAN »

"Why has ASL never been brought to the PC?

IT HAS BEEN SARGE! ITS CALLED CLOSE COMBAT!


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 2085580949

GET IT AND MEET ME ON ZONE.COM, MSN MESSENGER OR MILITARYGAMERONLINE AND PUT UP YER DUKES!
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

Hmm

Well I would be inclined to disagree about CC being the "best" made for PC emulation of ASL, but that is because I think Steel Panthers is better at emulating ASL.
Although the most important detail is to remember, that if one uses VASL, they don't actually need to look for an emulation of the game. They can play the actual game.

That option though won't be for everyone.

I have as yet, not had any success ferreting out copies of CC for sale.

At this time though, I am inclined to probably assume I missed the boat, and go with checking out Close Assault when it is released.

I have reservations I will be sold on it entirely though. It's not my bag (which is hardly a well kept secret eh hehe).
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Post by SLAAKMAN »

DID YOU CHECK THE LINK TO EBAY ABOVE SARGE?
Germany's unforgivable crime before the Second World War was her attempt to extricate her economy from the world's trading system and to create her own exchange mechanism which would deny world finance its opportunity to profit.
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Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

Ebay is not an option to me normally. Financial based limitation though. Credit cards, don't have them eh.

When I buy something online, I usually do it by proxy. Real nuisance, but I have a system that seems to work for me. My system's name is Margaret by the way.

Hmmm looking at threads I have seen here and there though, looking at responses I have gotten here and there,

Then there is the name of the thread "why wargaming can never grow", hmmmm.

Weeds grow, but no one likes weeds much.

I can only say, that I started with board game wargames, and indications are I might end with board game wargames potentially too.

Some days, I feel a bit flustered with the world of computer wargaming. I am sometimes just glad I have a life time of board game wargames, that will always be there.

I am occasionally hard pressed to say if I care if computer wargaming has any future at all.

My board game wargames will always be better in my opinion.

The future of computer wargaming will be what it will be, but it won't do much to harm me if tomorrow it all just disappeared.
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You're missing an important point...

Post by KG Erwin »

...in that, it has been shown that the majority of wargamers play their games solitaire (against whatever AI is provided by the game developers), rather than playing PBEM or playing online, despite the best efforts of the publishers (Microsoft being the prime example) of pushing players into online gaming communities. This attempt to force the gaming demographic (whatever that is) to avoid playing against the computer is , to my mind, simple laziness. The issue isn't beauty of presentation or game mechanics--the issue is addressing the players' wants. The players want a competent computer opponent, and in modern gaming design, that is too often the last issue to be considered, simply because it is the most difficult to achieve. I, for one, am sick to death of beautifully presented games that are great to look at but, once you get to know them, are boring and intellectually decrepit (sounds like a few of my old girlfriends.) This is the true reason that wargames may have a tough road in future--my God, the US military has simulations that would put stars in the eyes of the grognards out there. That's the technology that has to be captured for the consumer market--the US Army made a very feeble attempt, but give us a game/sim that recreates the challenges of COMMAND, not just aiming at the baddie and blowing him away.
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Re: You're missing an important point...

Post by pasternakski »

Originally posted by KG Erwin
...in that, it has been shown that the majority of wargamers play their games solitaire (against whatever AI is provided by the game developers), rather than playing PBEM or playing online, despite the best efforts of the publishers (Microsoft being the prime example) of pushing players into online gaming communities. This attempt to force the gaming demographic (whatever that is) to avoid playing against the computer is , to my mind, simple laziness. The issue isn't beauty of presentation or game mechanics--the issue is addressing the players' wants. The players want a competent computer opponent, and in modern gaming design, that is too often the last issue to be considered, simply because it is the most difficult to achieve. I, for one, am sick to death of beautifully presented games that are great to look at but, once you get to know them, are boring and intellectually decrepit (sounds like a few of my old girlfriends.) This is the true reason that wargames may have a tough road in future--my God, the US military has simulations that would put stars in the eyes of the grognards out there. That's the technology that has to be captured for the consumer market--the US Army made a very feeble attempt, but give us a game/sim that recreates the challenges of COMMAND, not just aiming at the baddie and blowing him away.


Excellently put. I believe that, if computer wargame designers were to put more effort into revolutionizing AI design and less into figuring out how to attach cutesy animations and noises to their products, they would go a long way toward solving their survival problem.

Those of us who have taken wargaming as serious fun for a long time are not stupid. We prize competency over cuteness, substance over style, every time. If you need to appeal to a mass market, you lose us. Yet, in doing so, you lose the heart of your own games. Eventually, you lose anyway. You cannot outrun or outgun the kicky cult copiers of realtime crap. We are not many, yet we are loyal. We do have value as keepers of the faith and spreaders of the word.

Much of the malaise (and lack of sales) that beset the fledgling computer wargaming business was due to a gross mis-evaluation of the market leading to a terribly wrong turn in game design. When Grigsby's early designs gave way to the pap of the mid-nineties, the handwriting was on the wall. Matrix/2by3 are the Phoenix hope for the future, yet unsettling signs are beginning to show themselves. Don't lose the hard core. Pretty doesn't always translate into profit. You are never going to command much more than a niche market. Remember where you came from. Build it and they will come ...

By the way, KG, do you still have the phone numbers of some of those girls...
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Post by Brigz »

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1

Some days, I feel a bit flustered with the world of computer wargaming. I am sometimes just glad I have a life time of board game wargames, that will always be there.

I am occasionally hard pressed to say if I care if computer wargaming has any future at all.

My board game wargames will always be better in my opinion.

The future of computer wargaming will be what it will be, but it won't do much to harm me if tomorrow it all just disappeared.
Here's the future of real computer wargaming. It's called Vassal. You can play any wargame, and, move the counters and roll dice just like a wargame on your table. You can play over the internet or by email or solitaire. And it's free. Sure it requires some work to make the modules, but they can be as simple or complex as you wish. And if you don't have any artistic skills (personally I think all wargamers have above average artistic skills), then there are people like me who get off making the modules. Below is a screen shot of my War and Peace module that I hand painted with Paint Shop pro. Took a little time, but I enjoy that kind of thing. Kinda like making and painting models.

Image

Here's the website: http://www.vasl.org/vassal

I think this has very good potential. While I like Aide de Camp 2, it plays too much like a computer program. Vassal is played just like a real boardgame on top of a table.

Anyway, it's another alternative and the only way to play a traditional wargame on the computer.
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Post by SwampYankee68 »

Originally posted by Marc Schwanebeck
Wrong, wait for Combat Leader ;). It´s a matter of what the engine is capable of ;).

Fact is with graphics like in the screenshot posted it´s very hard to attract new people for the game. With "new" I mean people that are potentional wargamers, everybody that is allready a hardcore wargamer knows HPS and that they produce pretty good games. These hardcore wargamers will forgive the lack of "new and nice" graphics, people that are potentional wargamers need something to be attracted or persuaded to actually spend their bucks on something that they consider the "might" like to play. That is in a lot of cases screenshots, wether on a box on on the website.


Graphics aside, The Panzer Campaign engine is getting rather moldy. I looked forward to and bought Fulda Gap and was extremely dissapointed in the engine - move or shoot, wait an interminable length of time while counter and op fire is resolved, repeat - the larger scenarios made me pull my hair in frustration. No way to speed up the resolution of op and counter-fire, or the replay of your opponent's turns. I stopped playing it. I had purchased the game for it's subject matter after having looked at the screen shots, knowing what I was getting in that department. It was the gameplay, the engine, that killed that one for me. The SB Vietnam games have some questionable design decisions in the gameplay vs reality area as well. That said, I know it is a matter of preferance when it comes to some games, those of HPS especially. Games like Battlefields and Korsun Pocket, Close Assault and Combat Leader, Flashpoint Germany, WitP, and others Matrix is working on, which will hopefully combine the great looks we can already see and the great gameplay we expect from the forum info we've read will bring more fresh blood into our hobby I'm sure, as Uncommon Valor and the Combat Missions already have. Just one gamer's opinion.
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Post by AlBW »

The Panzer Campaign engine is getting rather moldy
An oft-repeated phrase that has now become almost cliche. In comparing the first in the series with how the latest game looks, one can see how the PzC engine has evolved & improved. For instance, you complain about how the A/I processing takes an interminable amount of time. That issue has been resolved with the addition of a "fast AI" setting and has been retrofitted to Smolensk '41 and both of the Modern Campaign games (of which Fulda '85 is one). Of course, the other games in the series will be updated as well. So, maybe you can see where I think that staements such as yours to be totally wrong. Don't think I'm singling you out here as the reviews of the Panzer Campaign series over at wargamer.com say the same thing you do about the engine. I think they're totally wrong, too.
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