Totally OT: Yay

[Alfred]

Symon,
 
Any thought given to the next ship design project?
 
Even less studied is ship building for the Spanish Armada.  Three periods immediately come to my mind.
 
1.  Comparison between the English and Spanish fleets of 1588.
2.  The sudden rise out of the phoenix of the Alberoni "green, unseasoned" 1719 fleet.
3.  The impact of the C18th Havana shipyard.
 
Alfred

[comte]

John I would like to wish you congratulations on getting your book published! [8D]

Regards,

Joe

[Symon]

I thank all of you for your wonderful support.

@Alfred. It's taken me two years to get to this point. It will take about another year to get everything print-ready. Beyond that, all the ship modelers are seriously on my butt about cutting some wood and making a model. A French author and model maker, G Delacroix, is very interested in my work, particularly since he is doing a very similar monograph on a unique French frigate design, L'Égyptienne, from the same time period. He is a Chevalier de L'Ordre du Mérite Maritime, and a friend to, and regular correspondant with, Jean Boudriot. He is up for mentoring the project. Jeez, can you say Woof !!!

Lots of work. Years of work. End point is an admiralty quality POF model of a standard Sané frigate of the Napoleonic period, choosing Cornelie. Something that has never been done before so how could I possibly resist.

The Spanish are going to have to wait their turn. They too had some very nice ships, but not today. Ciao. John

[Alfred]

Ah, even more work still to be done than I had anticipated.  I fear we will lose Symon to his new love.  Although whether that be a French or Argentinean one is beyond my Nostradamus capabilities.[:)]
 
Alfred

[ny59giants]

Great news Sir John!! [&o][&o]

May you continue to have fair winds at your back.

[fcharton]

ORIGINAL: Symon
Lots of work. Years of work. End point is an admiralty quality POF model of a standard Sané frigate of the Napoleonic period, choosing Cornelie. Something that has never been done before so how could I possibly resist.

Hi John,

Why the Cornelie? Isn't she just another Virginie, and a revolutionary era frigate, too?

Why not go for one of the later designs by Sané, either Hortense or Pallas (the one design that actually outlived Sané)? I bet you have the devis d'exécution for the latter .
Anyway, here's a souvenir from the Cornélie. The header reads :

"Devis de la frégate de la République la Cornélie de 40 canons, au retour de la campagne de 2 mois 10 jours qu'elle vient de faire en croisière aux Açores sous le commandement du citoyen Villemadrin, capitaine de vaisseau, commandant la division composée de trois frégates".

This is the first page of a "devis de campagne", the after-action reports ship captains sent back to the admiralty after their first cruise, with a lot of comments on maneuverability, which were supposed to help improve the design. Captain Villemadrin, who wrote this report, was to command the Swiftsure (formerly, and soon to become again, HMS Swiftsure) at Trafalgar.

[Symon]

ORIGINAL: fcharton
Hi John,

Why the Cornelie? Isn't she just another Virginie, and a revolutionary era frigate, too?

Hi Franciois,

Three reasons I chose Cornélie, or rather why Cornélie chose herself. I did a set of lines draughts for Pallas, from her devis d'exécution [;)] and checked against the after-capture British take-off draught of Fidéle (a Pallas). Did another set for Virginie, from her devis d'exécution [;)] and checked against her after-capture British take-off draught. The lines are virtually identical except in two areas

First, Cornélie was altered in 1799-1800 at Toulon to address one of these two areas and was trialed again by capitaine de vaisseau Villemadrin. I got the 1800 Plans de cale de la frégate la Cornélie from SHD Rochefort, that show the alterations. In this configuration, she formed the “proof” or prototype for the lines of the Hortense/Pallas class embodied in the 1808 règlement (she also got rid of that horrid poop deck). The remaining differences I can detail in a three page addendum with two extra figures. So one can build either a Cornélie or a Pallas class hull form.

Second, there’s nothing extent on the interior details of a Pallas, and you have to have those for a good monograph. Fidéle was taken on the stocks and finished out as a standard Brit so that won’t work. Virginie, however, had extensive interior layout draughts done in her as-captured condition: pumps, mast steps, bitts, magazine, wheel/tiller/capstain layout, decks and beams, and planking and bears, oh my !! woof !! Cornélie would follow these.

Third, Pallas class was pretty utilitarian; very plain in ornamentation. But Virginies were built before Napo drafted all the woodcarvers to make musket stocks at Lille [8D]. I have a beautiful copy of Décoration de poupe, proue et bouteille de la frégate la Cornélie, Signé Collet aîné, sculpteur en chef. 0.93 x 0,69, again from Rochefort.

Ok, I’m a romantic, but I wanted to show one of these beautiful vessels in their full glory. She was a Pallas in all but 6" of length between perps, 1" depth of midship hold, and a 9 pouce 6 ligne offset to the bilge arc centers, but was adorned like a beautiful woman (sorry, ship) ought to be. She was the passing of the torch from les ornements du siècle des lumières to l'âge d'utilité. But my goodness, she was gorgeous.

John

[ed] I think I am beginning to understand Jean Boudriot's reluctance to do Empire period ships. I think he's a romantic, too.

[fcharton]

Thanks a lot for the reply. If I understand correctly, you're saying that there's only one Sané frigate class (ok, maybe excluding the Hebé, but then maybe not), and that the rest were minor refinement. As a result, Cornélie is the best example, as it is late enough to include all the important refinement, and early enough to keep something of the Ancien Régime.

Thinking about it, it makes a lot of sense. From the documents I've seen, naval architects did pretty much everything, from ship design, to the selection of wood, and even writing down the logarithm tables needed for various calculations (I've seen a couple of those : pages of handmade tables, with all sort of complicated calculation). Once you had one done, you sure would be reluctant to start a brand new class, with completely different design. (And this might result why a lot of our modern 'advanced' technology is borked : people just spend a lot of time thinking of something new, instead of trying to expand on something that works).

Which begs the question: how does Hébé class stand? Is it the prototype for the Virginie and later classes, and if so, why not go for it?

Francois

[Symon]

In a sense, you are quite right; there was “the” Sané frigate. There were technically four classes; Hébé, Virginie, Hortense and Pallas. Sané had a design philosophy, embodied in Hébé and subsequent variations were incremental and evolutionary. One can tell at a glance of a draught if a design was a Sané or a Forfait, for example. From Hébé to Pallas, the principal dimensions changed (grew) 6 inches in length, 2 inches in breadth, and 1 inch in depth. Other changes were lengthening quarterdeck two and a half feet and the forecastle one and a half feet to better accommodate a couple more guns (Virginie), changing the forefoot/bow curvature and section closure/rising for better performance to weather with improved flotation/displacement forward (Cornélie), new bow plus 6 inch stretch along keel flat and 1 inch greater depth of hold (Hortense), all the foregoing plus an increased span of wing transom (l’hourdy) by four inches allowing an increased breadth of two inches (Pallas).

A few other minor variations like arrangement of gunports, arrangement of shrouds, channels and chains, etc.. But basically, once afloat, it would take a very well-trained, knowledgeable eye to differentiate between them.

Jean Boudriot has already done a monograph on Vénus (a Hébé). He chose the Vénus because she was pre-revolution and made a famous voyage of scientific discovery to east Africa and the Indian Ocean. She represented a Sané frigate from the time the French Navy was still in its Ancien Régime glory. He refuses to do Empire stuff because they were so dominated by the British. Yes, indeed, another romantic, and I can’t fault him for it.

Virginie had the same lines and dimensions, but had the quarterdeck and forecastle stretch to allow for a couple more guns. Virginie also had a slightly longer bilge radius and thus 3% greater displacement to accommodate the additional guns. Virginie was basically a Hébé that had gone to the gym.

Cornélie was the only Virginie to get the new bow section of what would become the Hortense/Pallas classes. Hortense/Pallas got the new bow and the final stretches. Cornélie was unique; not quite a Hortense/Pallas, but no longer strictly a Virginie. I wanted the Empire period bow section for the lines, but the early period ornamentation. It’s true, Cornélie picked herself. She put on that white gauze gown and perched on the chaise like Juliette Récamier. “Monsieur, am I not what you wish?”

Woof !! John

[Mac Linehan]

John-

My sincere congratulations on publishing your book. Quality requires (read: demands!) serious time and effort, particularly if it is a work of love.

I have just finished O'Brian's "Aubrey and Maturin" series for the second time. While under O'Brian's spell, I bought several companion reference books relating to the series; but have not given the study due to such an intricate subject (ship and armament design of the period).

Please let us know when ready for publishing; I would be delighted not only to support you, but to immerse myself in a subject of great interest that I so know little of.

Sincerely wish you further success-

Mac

[oldman45]

Better late than never, well done John, I have always had a soft spot for the tall ships of any country or style. The frigates were elegant, I think that is a good way to describe them. The ship of the line were just brutes.