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[orabera]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: orabera

ORIGINAL: timmyab

In-hex rivers has always been a game breaker for me. Never could take it seriously as a result. Put rivers on hex sides and I'll be a buyer.


Second, third and fourth. Every time I start back with TAOW, I'm turned off again by this truly goofy feature. I'd rather see tortured hex-side rivers than see Buda and Pest separated by a 50km wide river.

Or you could have the river flow through a city hex and call it "Budapest".......

start

But then no matter which direction I attack from BudaPest, I'm attacking across a river. How can you be on both sides and neither at the same time.

Some like it, some get used to it, some hate it. I love this game because of the flexibility, and hate it for this one reason.

[SMK-at-work]

Yep - at the very least a river running through your rear zones imposes restrictions on supply flow and restricts depth of deployment - works for me.

[Falcon1]

The more I think about it, I think rivers on the hex sides is best. Yeah it may be a downgrade aesthetically, but the rules will make more sense I think. We don't complain about other terrain features following the hex pattern, at least I haven't seen that.

[SMK-at-work]

IIRC (off the top of my head) escarpments/hilltops are the only features that follow hex sides aren't they?

[Falcon1]

I didn't necessarily mean just features on the hex sides. Most terrain features fill nearly the entire hex with a uniform pattern, so that it is obvious that you are either inside or outside the feature, a forest for instance. Even with the visible hex sides turned off, the hex based pattern of the map is obvious.

This doesn't bother me at all. You don't need to make the rivers into straight lines that follow the hex sides, just make it clear enough which hex side is affected.

[Meyer1]

Regarding rivers: tm.asp?m=1558431&mpage=1&key

Have fun [:)]

[timmyab]

ORIGINAL: orabera
But then no matter which direction I attack from BudaPest, I'm attacking across a river. How can you be on both sides and neither at the same time.

I haven't actually played a game with this feature but I'm guessing that normal river rules are suspended for cities with rivers flowing trough the center of the hex. Maybe there's a river modifier on top of the city's normal modifier or something of that sort I don't know. If the city is clearly one side or other of the river then you place a normal hex side river.
Because of the difficulty of capturing cities by frontal assault this feature should work in practice I would imagine. Usually if a city on a river is captured it's because it's been isolated from supply anyway, i.e the river has already been crossed on both sides of the city.
So in practice this allows rivers to flow through cities in an aesthetically pleasing way without affecting game play. I'm not particularly advocating this, just saying that I see no objection to it.

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: timmyab

In-hex rivers has always been a game breaker for me. Never could take it seriously as a result. Put rivers on hex sides and I'll be a buyer.

Great point. I feel the same way.

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

Regarding rivers: tm.asp?m=1558431&mpage=1&key

Have fun [:)]

Ah, yes. The bad old days. [:)]

[Falcon1]

I didn't read that whole thread, so maybe this was addressed.

Yes, if you are in a river hex it always seems as though you are on the wrong side of the river, whatever you are trying to do. Attacking from a river hex doesn't even seem to make sense.

Let's say hex is 10km and a river is going through the middle, and I am attacking out of this hex to an adjacent unit on dry land. The game assumes that I am attacking from behind the river, which means attacking an enemy that is around 5km away from me.

If I'm on defense, I do not get any benefit from defending so apparently in this case the game is assuming that I am on the same same of the river as the attacker. (again the wrong side)

[Freyr Oakenshield]

I beg you, make it possible to save during PBEM. It will greatly facilitate the playing of monster scenarios such as FitE.[&o]

[Curtis Lemay]

ORIGINAL: Freyr Oakenshield

I beg you, make it possible to save during PBEM. It will greatly facilitate the playing of monster scenarios such as FitE.[&o]

?? You can do that now.

[Freyr Oakenshield]

...and it's not acting up? My opponent will get no "reload" messages if I save a few times?

[SMK-at-work]

Your opponent dos get "reload" messages if you save- that is the point - it is a point of honour and free time to be able to get through a FITE move without savng.........but it's no realistic to expect it every move!!

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: timmyab
In-hex rivers has always been a game breaker for me. Never could take it seriously as a result. Put rivers on hex sides and I'll be a buyer.

I wouldn't call it a game-breaker, but I much much prefer hex-side rivers. Having read the arguments for in-hex rivers, I am completely unconvinced. I noticed this in the linked thread (from 2007):
*************
Sorry if this has been raised elsewhere hereabouts, but I vaguely remember Norm on a forum somewhere many years ago saying that but for problems with the game company who originally owned this, a patch allowing hex river sides was already built and on his machine for release.
*************

I really hope that hex-side rivers will be introduced along with in-hex rivers.

[lecrop]

Will pre-XX century scens be included with the new game or the possibility to create new ones?

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: timmyab
In-hex rivers has always been a game breaker for me. Never could take it seriously as a result. Put rivers on hex sides and I'll be a buyer.

I wouldn't call it a game-breaker, but I much much prefer hex-side rivers. Having read the arguments for in-hex rivers, I am completely unconvinced. I noticed this in the linked thread (from 2007):
*************
Sorry if this has been raised elsewhere hereabouts, but I vaguely remember Norm on a forum somewhere many years ago saying that but for problems with the game company who originally owned this, a patch allowing hex river sides was already built and on his machine for release.
*************

I really hope that hex-side rivers will be introduced along with in-hex rivers.

It's really bizarre to me that TOAW continues to persist with in-hex rivers. Back in the dark ages of wargaming Avalon Hill games used the in-hex river system. There were always issues about crossing the things due to the inability to tell at a glance on which side of the river was the unit. I don't recall which game was the first with hexside rivers but once it was done all in-hex rivers disappeared, to the point that I can't recall a single game now that uses them. And I don't know of any argument at all favoring them.

It's also very telling that Norm had already added hexside rivers to the game as the quote above indicates, but it never made it to an official version due to some administrative snafu.

If you look at the leading hex-based computer wargames, none save TOAW use in-hex rivers. It's just difficult to believe hexside rivers can't be added to a new version here, at least as a scenario designer's option.

[Freyr Oakenshield]

If you look at the leading hex-based computer wargames, none save TOAW use in-hex rivers. It's just difficult to believe hexside rivers can't be added to a new version here, at least as a scenario designer's option.

I second that. No boardgames known to me put rivers in the middle of a hex... IMO, there should at least be an option like that for designers of future scenarios.

[Crossroads]

ORIGINAL: Freyr Oakenshield

If you look at the leading hex-based computer wargames, none save TOAW use in-hex rivers. It's just difficult to believe hexside rivers can't be added to a new version here, at least as a scenario designer's option.

I second that. No boardgames known to me put rivers in the middle of a hex... IMO, there should at least be an option like that for designers of future scenarios.

Avalon Hill's Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader, for starters? Advanced Squad Leader too as I recall. You said boardgames right [:)]

[76mm]

ORIGINAL: Crossroads
Avalon Hill's Panzerblitz, Panzer Leader, for starters? Advanced Squad Leader too as I recall.

hmmm, of course all of these games are, what, forty years old? And hexes in ASL are all of 40 meters wide, so I'm not sure that counts!