OT-Rising Sun

[rustysi]

Just my opinion here, it's all about what symbols mean to people. The swastika had positive meanings in many cultures for centuries. It had meaning to the Hopi, the Tibetans, and Norse mythology. The swastika used on Finnish aircraft predated the Nazi era because of its meaning in Norse mythology. The Nazis probably adopted it because of the connection with Norse mythology. Today it is usually not used in its ancient context because of the meaning it has a symbol to so many people. Some people use that symbol to express their ideology.

Just an FYI here. The original shoulder patch of the US 45th ID was a swastika. Yellow symbol on a red field. It was changed to the Thunderbird (same colors) sometime after the Nazis came to power.

[wdolson]

I believe the 45th ID didn't change their unit patch until 1940 or 1941.

Bill

[Numdydar]

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Thank you for not taking this down the modern political route.

BTW, the rising sun flag gas always been the Japanese naval ensign. It got associated with Imperial Japan of the 1940s, but they still flew the red dot flag as their national flag before and after that time.

Just my opinion here, it's all about what symbols mean to people. The swastika had positive meanings in many cultures for centuries. It had meaning to the Hopi, the Tibetans, and Norse mythology. The swastika used on Finnish aircraft predated the Nazi era because of its meaning in Norse mythology. The Nazis probably adopted it because of the connection with Norse mythology. Today it is usually not used in its ancient context because of the meaning it has a symbol to so many people. Some people use that symbol to express their ideology.

The Japanese Navy's ensign is still associated with Imperial Japan in a lot of minds, but nobody today is using it to forward any of the beliefs of Imperial Japan at its worst. The Code of Bushido was a horrible warping of the Samurai code and it led to terrible injustices, but it was also a uniquely Japan thing. When Japan abandoned it in 1945, the whole mythos died with it. Nobody uses the Japanese naval ensign as a symbol of their modern ideology, so the world just goes on any ignores its continued use.

When symbols lose meaning for contemporary ideologies, they become historical relics, possibly a curiosity to anyone who notices they are still being used, and little else. How many people today feel strongly about the symbols used in the War of the Roses? The bad blood from that war simmered under the surface in England for generations after the war ended, but history moved on and the issues died. It probably helped that the two competing factions for the throne died out, but the whole meaning of the factions died with time. Some people who have studied the history understand the reasons for the war, but the vast majority of people either don't know it happened, or don't care.

I'll avoid discussing the modern context for any other symbols that have been in the news. This isn't the place for it.

Bill

Along those lines, I've always been surprised that the "Bonnie Blue Flag" Texas used in the Civil War hasn't been a target of revisionism also. There are other iterations of the flag of the CSA (the original was the 'stars and bars') that aren't the Confederate battle flag that should be equally objectionable to those with a mind towards history. After all, they represent the same thing, don't they?

An interesting paragraph from Snopes.com on the matter:

Herein lies the problem with symbols: They have no inherent meanings; they have only whatever meanings people choose to read into them, and different people can associate very different meanings with the same symbol. The Confederate battle flag is now regarded in many different ways — as a symbol of slavery, as a rallying banner for white supremacists, as a quaint historical artifact, as a memorial to those who fought gallantly and bravely (even if it was in the service of cause no longer considered virtuous), as a general emblem of rebellion against authority, as a benign display of regional pride, or even as a fond reminder of two “good ol’ boys” who were “never meanin’ no harm.”

Read more at http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/28/confeder ... R22xiK9.99

[geofflambert]

The "bonnie blue flag" was Mississippi's first state flag, I believe, nothing to do with Texas.

[geofflambert]

Here's a site showing it. You'll also see that the "Stars and Bars" was not the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee as many people believe.

http://www.netstate.com/states/symb/flags/ms_flag.htm

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

The "bonnie blue flag" was Mississippi's first state flag, I believe, nothing to do with Texas.

Texas beat 'em to it, lizard.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonnie_Blue_Flag

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
Here's a site showing it. You'll also see that the "Stars and Bars" was not the battle flag of the Army of Tennessee as many people believe.

Maybe not, but it *is* a CSA flag of that era and that ilk. If we were egalitarian revisionists, I'd expect the need to pick off all manner and all vestiges of any flag remotely similar to any CSA flag in use. For some reason though, the Confederate battle flag reserves more ire and anger than any other. It doesn't make any sense to me either.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

It's odd that the swastika was an ancient India (as in Asia) symbol of good luck and still is. I wonder if that history for the 45th is mistaken. The swastika can be seen on headstones etc. from India and the Nazis took it as an Aryan symbol for that reason.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

It's odd that the swastika was an ancient India (as in Asia) symbol of good luck and still is. I wonder if that history for the 45th is mistaken. The swastika can be seen on headstones etc. from India and the Nazis took it as an Aryan symbol for that reason.

The Aryans came from India. I'm not sure Hitler knew that.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

It's odd that the swastika was an ancient India (as in Asia) symbol of good luck and still is. I wonder if that history for the 45th is mistaken. The swastika can be seen on headstones etc. from India and the Nazis took it as an Aryan symbol for that reason.

The swastika design is used in Native American pottery works as well. Hopi, IIRC. Not sure which predated which. I doubt there was a great cultural legacy between Hopi and (eastern) Indian cultures. This design may very well represent independent cultural development and legacy.

[geofflambert]

You just never know everything. We know the Vikings were here before Columbus, and we know the Chinese very well might have been before that. We know the Roman Empire had communications of various sorts with the Far East. If the North American swastika looked like an Asian one, it's probably no coincidence (IMO).

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

ORIGINAL: geofflambert
It's odd that the swastika was an ancient India (as in Asia) symbol of good luck and still is. I wonder if that history for the 45th is mistaken. The swastika can be seen on headstones etc. from India and the Nazis took it as an Aryan symbol for that reason.

It's a case of parallel evolution. I have heard speculation that it may be evidence of visitors to the west coast of North America from Asia. In any case, the same symbol shows up in both places before the Age of Exploration.

In any case, symbols only have power when people give them power. You could show up at protest rallies with a flag with an abstract squiggle on it and you would just be the weird guy with the weird flag unless the protestors decided to rally around that symbol, then the abstract squiggle would become the symbol that signifies the movement.

As wargamers, we see a rectangular box with an oval in it and another with an X in it and we think: armor unit and infantry unit. They have meaning to anyone who knows much about military matters because they have become fairly common in that world. To someone with little knowledge of that world, they mean nothing. I asked my SO what a rectangle with an oval inside meant and she was stumped. She didn't have a clue. She doesn't know much about military stuff, so she had never encountered the symbol and it had no meaning to her.

Bill

[rockmedic109]

I am not a fan of any such bans. Any ban will eventually lead to more items being banned. Soon, things with only a tenuous connection to the offensive actions will be banned.

Eventually deniers will begin to show up. And without evidence to the contrary because such evidence is banned, the deniers will be able to gain more converts.

And once again, a human culture will not have learned from history and be doomed to repeat it.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

This one is for Warspite:

If wars were won by feasting,
Or victory by song,
Or safety found,
by sleeping sound
How England would be strong!
But honour and dominion
Are not maintained so,
They're only got by sword and shot
And this the Dutchmen know!

The moneys that should feed us
You spend on your delight,
How can you then,
have sailor-men
To aid you in your fight?
Our fish and cheese are rotten,
Which makes the scurvy grow
We cannot serve you if we starve,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Our ships in every harbour
Be neither whole nor sound,
And when we seek to mend a leak,
No oakum can be found,
Or, if it is, the caulkers,
And carpenters also,
For lack of pay have gone away,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Mere powder, guns and bullets,
we scarce can get at all;
Their price was spent in merriment
And revel at Whitehall,
While we in tattered doublets
From ship to ship must row,
Beseeching friends for odds and ends
And this the Dutchmen know!

No King will heed our warnings,
No Court will pay our claims
Our King and Court for their disport
Do sell the very Thames!
For, now De Ruyter's topsails
Off naked Chatham show,
We dare not meet him with our fleet
And this the Dutchmen know!

warspite1

I am afraid it's meaning is lost on me. I gather this is something to do with the navy's defeat at the hands of the Dutch fleet in the Medway, but I am afraid the words kind of fly over my head. Sorry.....

warspite1

Care to enlighten me Cannonfodder?

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

I've been to OKC many times for work, and just about every trip I find time to visit. I've seen it many times and I'll go again. Its a good little museum.

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

This one is for Warspite:

If wars were won by feasting,
Or victory by song,
Or safety found,
by sleeping sound
How England would be strong!
But honour and dominion
Are not maintained so,
They're only got by sword and shot
And this the Dutchmen know!

The moneys that should feed us
You spend on your delight,
How can you then,
have sailor-men
To aid you in your fight?
Our fish and cheese are rotten,
Which makes the scurvy grow
We cannot serve you if we starve,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Our ships in every harbour
Be neither whole nor sound,
And when we seek to mend a leak,
No oakum can be found,
Or, if it is, the caulkers,
And carpenters also,
For lack of pay have gone away,
And this the Dutchmen know!

Mere powder, guns and bullets,
we scarce can get at all;
Their price was spent in merriment
And revel at Whitehall,
While we in tattered doublets
From ship to ship must row,
Beseeching friends for odds and ends
And this the Dutchmen know!

No King will heed our warnings,
No Court will pay our claims
Our King and Court for their disport
Do sell the very Thames!
For, now De Ruyter's topsails
Off naked Chatham show,
We dare not meet him with our fleet
And this the Dutchmen know!

Rudyard Kipling

[Justus2]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

For those that care [:)]

http://45thdivisionmuseum.com/Swastika

I've been to OKC many times for work, and just about every trip I find time to visit. I've seen it many times and I'll go again. Its a good little museum.

It is a neat museum, visted years ago when my unit was attached to 45th Brigade (the successor unit) for an exercise. Some moving photos and stories of when they liberated one of the concentration camps (I think it was Dachau).

[MrKane]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Haiti, 1791-1804
Lost. French defeated by rebellion after sacrificing 4,000 Poles to yellow fever. Shows another rule of French warfare: “When in doubt, send an ally.”

Well, a lot of Poles died there, however most of them joined Haitians and help them fight off France occupation forces
Poles always fight for freedom and mostly on loosing side. This was one of very few episode in our military history that we actually won

Those Poles who did not joined Haitians were captured by British and become RN sailors.
Only a few have return to Europe.

[Justus2]

ORIGINAL: MrKane

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Haiti, 1791-1804
Lost. French defeated by rebellion after sacrificing 4,000 Poles to yellow fever. Shows another rule of French warfare: “When in doubt, send an ally.”

Well, a lot of Poles died there, however most of them joined Haitians and help them fight off France occupation forces
Poles always fight for freedom and mostly on loosing side. This was one of very few episode in our military history that we actually won

Those Poles who did not joined Haitians were captured by British and become RN sailors.
Only a few have return to Europe.

MrKane,
Your description of Poles fighting for freedom reminded me of a quote I saw when I was in Poland training with 10th Armored Cav Bde. I spent two months in Swietosow, then deployed to Afghanistan with them. They had a memoral to GEN Maczek on their base, and his quote was:
"The Polish soldier fights for the freedom of all nations but dies only for Poland"
(Looked it up to get the wording right). Very interesting story learning about him while I was there, and the pride of the Polish Soldiers in their heritage.