OT: US navy returns to celestial navigation amid fears of computer hack

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: spence

My first ship USCGC Duane (1972) had Loran A: serial number 0000003. That plus star sights was pretty much it. A few years later I got assigned to a ship with Loran C. Towards the end of my tour (1978) we made a cruise using some kind of satellite navigation system, the purpose of which was to verify the Loran C readings printed on the charts which had been mathematically calculated but which were in error. Can't really remember all that we did but we did it at anchor because the satellite system required multiple satellite passes to resolve our position with the necessary accuracy. At that time Loran C was commonly used by merchies and fishing boats for navigation. Not sure what the rich folk (USN) used.

Wiki seems to say the TRANSIT system was started in the very late 50s on paper, and really fielded by about 1967. It was primarily for SSBNs, but was used by lots of ships and planes. It was similar to GPS, but fewer satellites and worse accuracy. We used it as a verification of the other electronic devices.

I think LORAN accuracy got worse the farther out you were? Maybe? TRANSIT was good anywhere. I think we held the mast up about five minutes for a pass, but we were always doing some other housekeeping at the same time. Trash, sanitaries, SSIX download, engineering dumps, etc. TRANSIT never kept us at PD. It was the other stuff. But it was a rare night orders book that didn't have a pass somewhere around 0400.

[CaptBeefheart]

From Wiki, here's some history of GPS:

*By December 1993, GPS achieved initial operational capability (IOC), indicating a full constellation (24 satellites) was available and providing the Standard Positioning Service (SPS).[37]

*Full Operational Capability (FOC) was declared by Air Force Space Command (AFSPC) in April 1995, signifying full availability of the military's secure Precise Positioning Service (PPS).[37]

*In 1996, recognizing the importance of GPS to civilian users as well as military users, U.S. President Bill Clinton issued a policy directive[38] declaring GPS a dual-use system and establishing an Interagency GPS Executive Board to manage it as a national asset.

*In 1998, United States Vice President Al Gore announced plans to upgrade GPS with two new civilian signals for enhanced user accuracy and reliability, particularly with respect to aviation safety and in 2000 the United States Congress authorized the effort, referring to it as GPS III.

*On May 2, 2000 "Selective Availability" was discontinued as a result of the 1996 executive order, allowing users to receive a non-degraded signal globally.

Although Wiki isn't always accurate, the above is. So, it wasn't available to civvies until 1996. Even in the Gulf War it wasn't perfect, as there wasn't a full constellation of GPS satellites up.

Cheers,
CC

[guytipton41]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I do not know if they still take noon sightings but I know my old union still requires a class in celestial navigation. I still have my old sextant. The surprising thing to me is that anyone thinks they can go to sea without knowing it. Ships rarely sink these days but I still want to know how to swim-just in case.

In one respect the article is factually incorrect. The use of sat nav and GPS on on merchants was fairly common by 1980. The article suggest that it was a mid 90s development. Pretty sad the quality of mainstream reporting these days. Who the hell is fact checking this stuff?

GPS in 1980? You sure?

Hi Folks,

I was doing GPS integration into the B-52 GNC software in 1982 and as I recall there were only four/five satellites in orbit and we could only test for about an hour a day when all four were visable.

Cheers,
Guy

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: guytipton41

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I do not know if they still take noon sightings but I know my old union still requires a class in celestial navigation. I still have my old sextant. The surprising thing to me is that anyone thinks they can go to sea without knowing it. Ships rarely sink these days but I still want to know how to swim-just in case.

In one respect the article is factually incorrect. The use of sat nav and GPS on on merchants was fairly common by 1980. The article suggest that it was a mid 90s development. Pretty sad the quality of mainstream reporting these days. Who the hell is fact checking this stuff?

GPS in 1980? You sure?

Hi Folks,

I was doing GPS integration into the B-52 GNC software in 1982 and as I recall there were only four/five satellites in orbit and we could only test for about an hour a day when all four were visable.

Cheers,
Guy

Yes, I may be off by a few years as I am going from memory, but I left the merchant marine in 1985 and remember that the more modern ships were relying on some sort of sat nav to the point where loran was only used as a back up. I do recall the habit of foreign flagged ships calling on the radio and asking for a fix when there was sustained bad weather. Even then many mates on were abandoning the practice of taking their own sextant to sea. The ship always had one anyway and the reliance on the sextant was falling off. But we all knew how to do it and the noon sun fix and evening star fix was the regular practice on all ships. However, satellite navigation was pretty common by then and considered more accurate than celestial navigation. I have not set foot on a ship since but remember it well. So it must have been fairly common.

[spence]

I think LORAN accuracy got worse the farther out you were? Maybe?

Actually IIRC the inaccuracies in LORAN C were occasioned at/by the interface of land and sea. That would seem to imply a change in the speed of light(radio) at that point but I'm at a loss to explain it.

Incidentally the original LORAN A was a major boon to Allied a/c during WW2 providing them with a better navigational aid than a DR in weather which didn't allow for accurate celestial navigation. In daylight you really only have a "Running DR Plot anyways since you have to wait for the sun to move a significant amount to get a decent angular separation and by then your plane has moved a whole lot too.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

From Wiki, here's some history of GPS:

*By December 1993, GPS achieved initial operational capability (IOC), indicating a full constellation (24 satellites) was available and providing the Standard Positioning Service (SPS).[37]

*Full Operational Capability (FOC) was declared by Air Force Space Command (AFSPC) in April 1995, signifying full availability of the military's secure Precise Positioning Service (PPS).[37]

*In 1996, recognizing the importance of GPS to civilian users as well as military users, U.S. President Bill Clinton issued a policy directive[38] declaring GPS a dual-use system and establishing an Interagency GPS Executive Board to manage it as a national asset.

*In 1998, United States Vice President Al Gore announced plans to upgrade GPS with two new civilian signals for enhanced user accuracy and reliability, particularly with respect to aviation safety and in 2000 the United States Congress authorized the effort, referring to it as GPS III.

*On May 2, 2000 "Selective Availability" was discontinued as a result of the 1996 executive order, allowing users to receive a non-degraded signal globally.

Although Wiki isn't always accurate, the above is. So, it wasn't available to civvies until 1996. Even in the Gulf War it wasn't perfect, as there wasn't a full constellation of GPS satellites up.

Cheers,
CC

That's the trouble with memory. I had remembered military GPS as being fully operational much earlier than this. The ads for maritime GPS, and even luggable units for hunters, began in the late 90s I think. But I thought military GPS was prime during Desert Storm.

[CaptBeefheart]

Military GPS was definitely used in Desert Storm, it just had periods of degraded capability depending on where the satellites were in the sky. Also, there weren't a lot of receivers in theater, and most aircraft didn't have it. I'm sure we have some vets from that conflict who can elaborate.

Here's a good piece on GPS usage during that conflict. It certainly helped in navigating across a featureless desert.

Of course, by Gulf War 2 GPS was in full use for navigation and munitions guidance.

Cheers,
CC

[Anathema]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

From Wiki, here's some history of GPS:

*By December 1993, GPS achieved initial operational capability (IOC), indicating a full constellation (24 satellites) was available and providing the Standard Positioning Service (SPS).[37]

*Full Operational Capability (FOC) was declared by Air Force Space Command (AFSPC) in April 1995, signifying full availability of the military's secure Precise Positioning Service (PPS).[37]

*In 1996, recognizing the importance of GPS to civilian users as well as military users, U.S. President Bill Clinton issued a policy directive[38] declaring GPS a dual-use system and establishing an Interagency GPS Executive Board to manage it as a national asset.

*In 1998, United States Vice President Al Gore announced plans to upgrade GPS with two new civilian signals for enhanced user accuracy and reliability, particularly with respect to aviation safety and in 2000 the United States Congress authorized the effort, referring to it as GPS III.

*On May 2, 2000 "Selective Availability" was discontinued as a result of the 1996 executive order, allowing users to receive a non-degraded signal globally.

Although Wiki isn't always accurate, the above is. So, it wasn't available to civvies until 1996. Even in the Gulf War it wasn't perfect, as there wasn't a full constellation of GPS satellites up.

Cheers,
CC

That's the trouble with memory. I had remembered military GPS as being fully operational much earlier than this. The ads for maritime GPS, and even luggable units for hunters, began in the late 90s I think. But I thought military GPS was prime during Desert Storm.

They started launching GPS satellites in 1978 and had launched 10 of the Block I models by 1985. I believe they need 32 for global coverage and didn't launch any more until 1989 when the Block II was developed, so I assume there were some large gaps in coverage into the 90s until full operational capability was declared in 1997.

Ronald Reagan ordered it be made available to civilians after the shooting down of the KAL flight that strayed into the USSR, although I am not sure when that actually happened, but was available to civilians by the Gulf War in 91.

[CaptBeefheart]

Right, there are references made to civilian GPS use in the 80s with Selective Availability (i.e. a 50 meter horizontal, 100m vertical error), so I guess you can say it was used by civilians from pretty early on, of course with a lot less accuracy than military but still useful for navigation.

My above statement, "So, it wasn't available to civvies until 1996," isn't accurate.

I also stumbled on this article which states Selective Availability was turned off during the Gulf War since a lot of units had civil GPS receivers due to the lack of military receivers. Selective Availability was zeroed out (i.e. no extra error) in 2000 for good once the DOD had developed a way to deny the C/A (i.e. civilian) signal to certain areas of the world as required.

Cheers,
CC

[Reg]

Another Navigation icon came down earlier this year - The Australian Omega Transmitter.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-04-22/omega-tower-australias-tallest-man-made-structure-demolished/6412100

http://jwpm.com.au/blog/tallest-structure-in-australia-to-be-demolished/

The African tower came down in 2011.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNi75OWgzkw

[Feltan]

ORIGINAL: Big B

This is funny, because I was recently talking to a friend who is old like me, and he was 82nd AB, and we talked about Land-Nav with map and compass.
We wondered if they even still teach that?...after years of GPS.

Back in the 70's and 80's we Infantry types could navigate with a paper map even if we didn't have a functioning compass.

No idea what they do today.

I remember those days well.

I too don't know what they do today; however, being forced to land navigate in those days across miles of open and featureless desert was an extended exercise in humility.

Regards,
Feltan

[Lawless1]

Good day All

QM on 637 class SSN 1970 to 1974. We used Loran A, Loran C, SIN (we had an ET onboard that worked on the developement of the SIN system) and of course we use DR. Hard to use the sexton we had on board, as a sub doesn't make a very good stable platform for shooting the starts. Interesting post. My one complaint with Loran was the lines on the charts were in red and the sub was rig for red at night and doing war games going up for a quick fix the old man would be breathing down your neck to get the fix so we could get back down. Memories

[JeffroK]

ORIGINAL: Feltan

ORIGINAL: Big B

This is funny, because I was recently talking to a friend who is old like me, and he was 82nd AB, and we talked about Land-Nav with map and compass.
We wondered if they even still teach that?...after years of GPS.

Back in the 70's and 80's we Infantry types could navigate with a paper map even if we didn't have a functioning compass.

No idea what they do today.

I remember those days well.

I too don't know what they do today; however, being forced to land navigate in those days across miles of open and featureless desert was an extended exercise in humility.

Regards,
Feltan

From Wiki, How the Long Range Desert Group solved the proboem.

All trucks of the LRDG were equipped with the Bagnold sun compass and some trucks were also equipped with a P8 Tank Compass. Each patrol had a navigator who always rode in the second truck in the formation. He was equipped with a theodolite and astronomical position tables with which to plot star sightings, and maps. Watches were used and adjusted each evening using the GMT time check. One major problem faced early on by the LRDG was a lack of accurate maps for Libya in particular. Patrols had to do their own surveys and make their own maps of each route they took. In July 1941 the Survey Section was formed to carry out this task

Navigating the Desert/Outback is easier than at sea, there are usually terrain points you can aim for, waves move.

[RagingKrikkit]

ORIGINAL: Big B

This is funny, because I was recently talking to a friend who is old like me, and he was 82nd AB, and we talked about Land-Nav with map and compass.
We wondered if they even still teach that?...after years of GPS.

Back in the 70's and 80's we Infantry types could navigate with a paper map even if we didn't have a functioning compass.

No idea what they do today.

Hey, active duty US Army Infantry here and yes, we do still practice land nav. Personally, I'm convinced that the opening shot of the third world war will be a missile fired at a nav satellite, and the war will be fought with a compass and protractor. I just hope that there are people out there who are better at it than me...

[Knavey]

ORIGINAL: spence

My first ship USCGC Duane (1972)...

Hey Spence...interesting to see you came off the Duane. I have dove her many times down in the Keys. Ever been back to visit her?

[jamesjohns]

Learned land nav and terrain navigation in the Army just before GPS came out, still used land nav/terrain nav in addition to GPS, many ways like it and a good map better doing & knowing both old and new school is still vital

[Big B]

Good to know you guys still know how to use a map and compass [;)]

ORIGINAL: jamesjohns

Learned land nav and terrain navigation in the Army just before GPS came out, still used land nav/terrain nav in addition to GPS, many ways like it and a good map better doing & knowing both old and new school is still vital

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

This is funny, because I was recently talking to a friend who is old like me, and he was 82nd AB, and we talked about Land-Nav with map and compass.
We wondered if they even still teach that?...after years of GPS.

Back in the 70's and 80's we Infantry types could navigate with a paper map even if we didn't have a functioning compass.

No idea what they do today.

Hey, active duty US Army Infantry here and yes, we do still practice land nav. Personally, I'm convinced that the opening shot of the third world war will be a missile fired at a nav satellite, and the war will be fought with a compass and protractor. I just hope that there are people out there who are better at it than me..

[LargeSlowTarget]

I have read somewhere that the most dangerous thing on a battlefield is a 2nd Lt with a map. Has this changed with GPS?

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I have read somewhere that the most dangerous thing on a battlefield is a 2nd Lt with a map. Has this changed with GPS?

I always thought it was a butter bar without an NCO?

[spence]

Hey Spence...interesting to see you came off the Duane. I have dove her many times down in the Keys. Ever been back to visit her?

Yeah but she was still floating at the time. I watched a diver's video of a trip down the passageways though. Kind of spooky seeing the fishes swimming around the mess deck. Some other diver took a photo of a barracuda floating in front of a porthole by the chart table on the bridge. What's sort of funny is somebody took an almost identical photo of me in 1973 when she was still afloat.

BTW my other ship was the CGC Bibb. She's another fish sanctuary "right alongside" the Duane. When she sank she rolled onto her side so I understand she was too dangerous for most divers to dive on. But somewhere or other I heard that a hurricane rolled her upright recently so people can dive on her too.