Allied Submarines - strategy and tactics

[Jonathan Pollard]

I have a single sub TF that has "Patrol Zone(!!)" immediately under the TF Routing line. What does the (!!) mean? A different sub TF has "Patrol Zone **". What does the ** mean? Yet another sub TF has "Patrol Zone **(+)", what does that mean? In case it makes any difference, I'm playing as Japanese.

[BBfanboy]

Don't know what those symbols mean - don't recall seeing them. First thing I would look at is whether the sub has enough fuel to reach the patrol area and patrol for a period of time. Big zones eat up the fuel fast.
Check that your subs have been re-armed. Lots of ports will refuel your sub but are too small to rearm them. Also check that the home port you have set is big enough to handle sub re-arm.
If there is a known mine field within your patrol route, that could trigger an obscure warning symbol - not saying there is one but I could believe the programmers thought of it.
Those are my guesses - hopefully someone else has the definitive answers.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

Is there any way to order a sub to follow or try to intercept a spotted enemy task force?

Nope. The "Follow" command only works with friendly TFs, and I am not even sure subs can use it. Certainly nothing can follow a sub by order.
The best you can do is set the react setting to 1, and the sub TF MAY react to a well-spotted TF in the next hex. I think this only happens when the enemy TF ends its movement there, rather than passing through.

No, not in AE.

The naval reaction is checked on each hex of movement.

Alfred

[John B.]

J.P. The best that I've been able to do is to try to guess where the detected TF is heading and then move other subs to be in the way. Sometimes, if its a wounded capital ship you can guess which port it might be heading to (either to shed flotation damage or to go to a shipyard) so you can move subs to be in hexes you think that the TFs might pass through. The other fact that helps you with this is that TFs tend to move in straight lines of hexes so that can narrow down the range of hexes you need to cover with intercepting subs.

Also, it can be worth it to set a sub to full speed to put it between a damaged capital ship and port as the more damaged the ship is the more that is is just a Large Slow Target.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

I have a single sub TF that has "Patrol Zone(!!)" immediately under the TF Routing line. What does the (!!) mean? A different sub TF has "Patrol Zone **". What does the ** mean? Yet another sub TF has "Patrol Zone **(+)", what does that mean? In case it makes any difference, I'm playing as Japanese.

It indicates you used different settings for the threat tolerance and the routing control. The ** show a direct routing and the !! an absolute threat tolerance.

[Jonathan Pollard]

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Pollard

I have a single sub TF that has "Patrol Zone(!!)" immediately under the TF Routing line. What does the (!!) mean? A different sub TF has "Patrol Zone **". What does the ** mean? Yet another sub TF has "Patrol Zone **(+)", what does that mean? In case it makes any difference, I'm playing as Japanese.

It indicates you used different settings for the threat tolerance and the routing control. The ** show a direct routing and the !! an absolute threat tolerance.

Yes, I gave that particular sub absolute threat tolerance because the leader's aggressiveness rating was low. Hopefully the threat tolerance will make it less likely for the leader to chicken out. In retrospect I should have assigned a better leader when creating the task force.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: John B.

I've found success in the sub war thus far in the three games I've played. In the current one for example, it's April 1943 and I've hit 123 AKs, 23 TKs, 25, AKLs etc... (this is exploded torpedo hits so it does not count the duds). And, yes, I'm a little OCD with my chart recording each hit and the sub that did it. My humble advice would be as follows:

1. You know where the ships have to go so put your subs there. For example, you know that most ships have to go to big ports in Japan so concentrate subs there. Other good places are at straits (such as north of the Philippines or heading north from Balikpapan and Tarakan).

2. Another good place for subs are major bases. Find the big ports and stick a sub or two there. Again, you know that merchants have to show up to resupply and that major warships have to rearm there so you will get lots of chances. This also holds true for places with large drydocks. You know that damaged BBs and CVs need to go to those and a damaged ship is much easier to sink. Just one extra CV per game can make this all worthwhile.

3. Avoid shallow water like the plague. The smaller boats may be more nimble, but, my experience is that getting caught in shallow water means, at the very least, serious damage. There are plenty of deep water places to get at IJN ships.

4. If there is a Japanese invasion of India or Australia then you know it will take lots of resupply and reinforcement efforts. Even better, he is heading into your search zones which gives your subs extra detection. You know what ports he has so, line up your subs that that he has to pass through several layers of boats to get there.

5. similarly, you know where you're going to have an invasion so pre-position boats around the target ahead of time. That way, you have shots at reinforcement/resupply and at any relief forces that can be heading in. I think subs are very helpful for finishing off wounded capital ships so you want them around if you think that there will be a carrier battle. Think of the "double tap" rule from Zombieland. You're pretty sure that CV is dead, but one more hit to make sure.

6. Prior to 1943 use your Dutch subs aggressively. They don't have torpedo problems!

7. Someone posted on one of my AARs to not have overlapping patrol zones. So, if your setting up a sub barrier outside of Tokyo for example, have one sub patrol three hexes, another sub patrol the three hexes south of that etc..

8. Always update your subs as soon as possible. In my limited experience the December 1942 upgrade makes a big difference in the number of times subs find surface TFs. I suspect that the upgrades frequently involve better electronics giving the subs greater detection capabilities.

9. Don't really waste time using subs as transports. They can't shift enough supplies to make a difference.

10. Remember the little "dot" islands that the Japanese rarely capture. If you have a badly damaged sub and you're near one of those you can disband the sub there and hope that it can drain some of the flooding and fix some of the systems damage and then make it home. This way, you might be able to save a few subs even if they are deep in enemy territory.

I hope this helps!

2. Put subs in enemy bases.

3. Avoid shallow water like the plague.

Don't these contradict themselves as aren't all bases in shallow water?

[Alfred]

Not really, they serve different purposes.

Alfred

[RangerJoe]

Actually, by having one sub unload supplies at Bataan every turn, at least one unit will have some supplies to fight effectively for that turn which will allow the units there to last longer, tying up those Japanese Army units for a longer time.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: John B.

I've found success in the sub war thus far in the three games I've played. In the current one for example, it's April 1943 and I've hit 123 AKs, 23 TKs, 25, AKLs etc... (this is exploded torpedo hits so it does not count the duds). And, yes, I'm a little OCD with my chart recording each hit and the sub that did it. My humble advice would be as follows:

1. You know where the ships have to go so put your subs there. For example, you know that most ships have to go to big ports in Japan so concentrate subs there. Other good places are at straits (such as north of the Philippines or heading north from Balikpapan and Tarakan).

2. Another good place for subs are major bases. Find the big ports and stick a sub or two there. Again, you know that merchants have to show up to resupply and that major warships have to rearm there so you will get lots of chances. This also holds true for places with large drydocks. You know that damaged BBs and CVs need to go to those and a damaged ship is much easier to sink. Just one extra CV per game can make this all worthwhile.

3. Avoid shallow water like the plague. The smaller boats may be more nimble, but, my experience is that getting caught in shallow water means, at the very least, serious damage. There are plenty of deep water places to get at IJN ships.

4. If there is a Japanese invasion of India or Australia then you know it will take lots of resupply and reinforcement efforts. Even better, he is heading into your search zones which gives your subs extra detection. You know what ports he has so, line up your subs that that he has to pass through several layers of boats to get there.

5. similarly, you know where you're going to have an invasion so pre-position boats around the target ahead of time. That way, you have shots at reinforcement/resupply and at any relief forces that can be heading in. I think subs are very helpful for finishing off wounded capital ships so you want them around if you think that there will be a carrier battle. Think of the "double tap" rule from Zombieland. You're pretty sure that CV is dead, but one more hit to make sure.

6. Prior to 1943 use your Dutch subs aggressively. They don't have torpedo problems!

7. Someone posted on one of my AARs to not have overlapping patrol zones. So, if your setting up a sub barrier outside of Tokyo for example, have one sub patrol three hexes, another sub patrol the three hexes south of that etc..

8. Always update your subs as soon as possible. In my limited experience the December 1942 upgrade makes a big difference in the number of times subs find surface TFs. I suspect that the upgrades frequently involve better electronics giving the subs greater detection capabilities.

9. Don't really waste time using subs as transports. They can't shift enough supplies to make a difference.

10. Remember the little "dot" islands that the Japanese rarely capture. If you have a badly damaged sub and you're near one of those you can disband the sub there and hope that it can drain some of the flooding and fix some of the systems damage and then make it home. This way, you might be able to save a few subs even if they are deep in enemy territory.

I hope this helps!

2. Put subs in enemy bases.

3. Avoid shallow water like the plague.

Don't these contradict themselves as aren't all bases in shallow water?

Just lost four subs in one turn at an enemy base to mines. I don't think placing subs in base hexes is the best idea will not do that again...

[rustysi]

Just lost four subs in one turn at an enemy base to mines. I don't think placing subs in base hexes is the best idea will not do that again...

Ah, lessons learned.[;)]

[RangerJoe]

Dot it early before the enemy can establish minefields at their major ports. Minor port may be not be mined

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Dot it early before the enemy can establish minefields at their major ports. Minor port may be not be mined

I did it was turn 4-5 haha. Subs passing through Batavia...

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Dot it early before the enemy can establish minefields at their major ports. Minor port may be not be mined

I did it was turn 4-5 haha. Subs passing through Batavia...

Batavia is a major port that starts with minefields . . .

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Dot it early before the enemy can establish minefields at their major ports. Minor port may be not be mined

I did it was turn 4-5 haha. Subs passing through Batavia...

Batavia is a major port that starts with minefields . . .

Yeah lesson learned...

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Dot it early before the enemy can establish minefields at their major ports. Minor port may be not be mined

I did it was turn 4-5 haha. Subs passing through Batavia...

Batavia is a major port that starts with minefields . . .

Actually it was not Batavia it was Merak. My opponent must have laid a ton of mines there in the first four to five turns...

[Nomad]

I lay mines there on turn 2.

[Tanaka]

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I lay mines there on turn 2.

Yeah will never take that route again...

[Wirraway_Ace]

ORIGINAL: Alfred


My post addressed the efficiency issue.

In war sometimes the best course of action is not the most efficient. Clearly if air and surface naval assets are not an option and it is imperative to cover "that" strait, the deployment of subs is an option. But let's not confuse AE, the game, with a real war situation. IRL subs have their own means to locate and track enemy targets but in AE those means do not exist. Which means that in AE the cost benefit ratio is even worse and the opportunity cost is therefore higher.

In AE there is never a situation where doing something is "a necessity". There is always an opportunity cost. What the opponent is doing has to be factored in to one's own actions and usually there is more than one viable response to counter an opponent's actions. Are there times when covering a strait with subs only is a good deployment? The answer is yes but don't expect it to be an efficient use, in terms of sinking enemy ships, of your subs.

Alfred

Alfred, it has been a long time since I played the Allies, but I seem to recall that eventually U.S. subs get both surface and air search radars. I had assumed the surface radar did help them ID their own targets. Though, I also recall being advised by some wise lawyer, maybe named Alfred, not to believe everything you read. Sometimes the devices don't work within the game engine the way the player such as me might wish to believe.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Alfred


My post addressed the efficiency issue.

In war sometimes the best course of action is not the most efficient. Clearly if air and surface naval assets are not an option and it is imperative to cover "that" strait, the deployment of subs is an option. But let's not confuse AE, the game, with a real war situation. IRL subs have their own means to locate and track enemy targets but in AE those means do not exist. Which means that in AE the cost benefit ratio is even worse and the opportunity cost is therefore higher.

In AE there is never a situation where doing something is "a necessity". There is always an opportunity cost. What the opponent is doing has to be factored in to one's own actions and usually there is more than one viable response to counter an opponent's actions. Are there times when covering a strait with subs only is a good deployment? The answer is yes but don't expect it to be an efficient use, in terms of sinking enemy ships, of your subs.

Alfred

Alfred, it has been a long time since I played the Allies, but I seem to recall that eventually U.S. subs get both surface and air search radars. I had assumed the surface radar did help them ID their own targets. Though, I also recall being advised by some wise lawyer, maybe named Alfred, not to believe everything you read. Sometimes the devices don't work within the game engine the way the player such as me might wish to believe.

The game's sub radars help in two areas:

(a) protection from enemy air assets

(b) target identification in battle.

They don't really assist in spotting the enemy task force they aren't really of assistance in MDL routines. That is one of the IRL situations not directly captured by the game. Also not directly captured are sonar signatures.

Players need to understand the differentiation between pre-combat parameters (which is MDL focused) and combat itself (which is DL focused). Don't assume DL/MDL carries over or has the same meaning in the two different stages. Abstraction is the order of the day.

The classic differentiation in the two stages being that in a surface combat (not ASW) shooting starts only once a visual contact is made, irrespective of how good the electronic assets are. But once visual contact is made, then the electronic assets can play a part in picking up and identifying enemy vessels to be targeted by your weapon systems. In game terms they can assist with the DL of individual enemy ships after visual contact with the enemy task force has been made. ASW combat is much more abstracted than surface combat.

Alfred