The Most Ignorant AI of All Time?

[zakblood]

the game can be as easy or as hard as you wish to make it, just by altering a few basic sliders




enjoy it and play it how you wish it to be, or not[X(]

[loki100]

generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference.

If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk.

This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised.

Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot).

What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

I think that Athena is the most ignorant excuse for an Artificial Ignorance of all time and all games I've played. It's obvious that Athena hasn't been improved at all over the years since Napoleon's Campaigns yet AGEOD keeps forcing this garbage AI on us.

Why can't we have Hotseat play mode? Why can't we control minor nations like we can in every other Napoleonic game I've played. Empires in Arms is so superior to WoN because of this. Why can't AGEOD give us human control of all nations or tribal areas so we can play Hotseat mode?

I tried a small test starting a new January 1805 campaign scenario as Great Britain. By turn 4 I was trying a trick to be able to move minor nations but found that even though Portugal was allied with Great Britain I still couldn't move it's units like I can Holland's land units. I decided to check France and found that while allied with France I couldn't move Bavarian units as France the way I could Holland's.

Now the real problem I saw was just how massively stupid the French AI played in the first 3 turns. The whole Army of Italy was gone from northern Italy, Massena was in Paris with a few corps that were with him in Italy. How they could have gotten that far that fast in the dead of winter while crossing the Alps is beyond me. Scotty beam me up, there's no intelligence in Athena! Just incredibly stupid to vacate the whole of Italy when a war with Austria is coming. Also prematurely stupid to load up in Paris in 1805 when Britain doesn't really have enough army to go for Paris.

The other thing I hate about Athena Ignorance is how it screws up perfectly formed armies and corps. Nothing I hate more than to see lone QC army or corp HQ's or artillery units or supply wagons moving around beyond the front lines alone. It makes playing against the AI so unfulfilling.

This is why I want Hotseat play mode, I'll never buy another AGEOD game if it doesn't have Hotseat play mode where we can play solo while playing each country. When playing with multiple major and minor nations I want to be able to play each without interference from the extreme ignorance of Athena. Why couldn't AGEOD have made WoN like other Napoleonic games by allowing us to ally with minors and once done we get to play them. Is that really too much to ask for AGEOD?

I love the WEGO game system but I've had more than enough of having to deal with the most ignorant AI of all time and games.

Wow, someone else gripes about ai's besides me? Will wonders never cease to amaze me. I get beat down if "I" complain about AI's. They say I do it too much and I say we all don't do it often enough. If more people complained more things would get done. Even Iain said on the thread about FONt sizes to keep complaining they were too small so the devs could see how we feel about things.

AI's have had 30 years to develop and really they've only gotten worse. I remember AI's back in the 80's that could whip my butt. I can beat them today with my eyes closed or at least one of them so I can see the hard to read monitor stuff. [:'(] Europe Ablaze comes to mind when I think of strong AI's back in the day. It was really hard to beat the British in that game. They shot down my planes by the hundreds. Hey just like in the real war huh? [:'(]

I'm wit ya pal when it comes to AI's though. Why they are a LAST thought to a game instead of the FIRST is beyond me.

[aaatoysandmore]

@ZAKBLOOD, what you don't seem to understand is all that mess doesn't improve the AI, it just tweaks the NUMBERs in the game. That is not smart ai or intelligent ai as the ai implies.

[vaalen]

I have played Ageod games since BOA came out, and Athena has given me a number of very good games.

I play as if Athena was a human general, and do not try to do unhistorical actions to entrap her or get her to act crazy. That can be done fairly easily, if you do things no general would have ever done in real life. But if you do that, you will ruin your own game.

If I follow this rule of playing historically, Athena usually gives me a good game, and has won more than I care to admit.

And the AI for a specific game can be improved. An example would be Hannibal, Terror of Rome, where AI Hannibal was not at all terror inspiring when the game came Out. I politely complained about this on the forum, and the AJE team improved the AI to the point that Hannibal really did become a terror, and playing Rome against, Athena became a real challenge, especially in the post Cannae scenario.

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: Omnius

altipueri,
I don't code so that's a really lame suggestion on your part.

Actually, no it is not. If you don't like something you have 2 options.

1) Make something better.
2) Do something different.

Complaining about that which you admittedly have no knowledge of simply advertises ignorance of a subject and opens you to ridicule. You had prior knowledge of the Athena engine, or at least you should have considering the amount of time you spent bashing it post purchase. The only thing 'lame' here is all the time & effort you have spent in this effort. Go learn to fix it. THEN you can shout to the heavens. Until then, your just a troll (not insulting, that is the term used).

[Aurelian]

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

[vaalen]

ORIGINAL: loki100

generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference.

If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk.

This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised.

Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot).

What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge.

Loki100, I have played with the inactive immobile setting for myself, and it really makes the game more challenging. Have never had the courage to use the worst attrition setting, though. I salute you!

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: vaalen

ORIGINAL: loki100

generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference.

If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk.

This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised.

Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot).

What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge.

Loki100, I have played with the inactive immobile setting for myself, and it really makes the game more challenging. Have never had the courage to use the worst attrition setting, though. I salute you!

Just started using Loki100's settings. Works well.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: vaalen

ORIGINAL: loki100

generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference.

If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk.

This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised.

Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot).

What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge.

Loki100, I have played with the inactive immobile setting for myself, and it really makes the game more challenging. Have never had the courage to use the worst attrition setting, though. I salute you!

I first used it in vs AI RoP game using the Austrian side. The combination meant the game lasted the full seven years and the last two both sides were more or less reduced to being armed mobs (and small mobs at that) for the last 2 years. It remained a real challenge right to the end and ended in a draw.

Good thing was I didn't have to then optionally restrain what I did and since Prussia has better leadership Athena still had the tools she needed.

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. ) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. ) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

It ill behooves you to try and dispense advice and not self apply it.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. ) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

I'm sorry but he doesn't want to inform .. he wants, for whatever wierd reason to pretend that AGEOD's AI is game-endingly awful. His claims would be more plausible if (a) he actually knew how it operated and how you can use the game settings or (b) started to set out a logic he thinks the AI should follow (no-one is asking him to code etc, just to think through what a 'better' AI looks like).

Now the simple reality is that AGEOD are a very small group of people utterly dedicated to producing highly detailed and realistic games set in periods that don't get much coverage - I mean where else can you find a scenario that covers late 17C warfare in N America?

So you can either dedicate yourself to trying to sabotage them (which is what ominus is doing) or support them by identifying real problems and feasible solutions?

[aaatoysandmore]

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. ) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

It ill behooves you to try and dispense advice and not self apply it.

DITTO I'm sure. [:'(]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: aaatoysandmore

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

I just love this reply on the Ageod forum, (linked above, but this is easier.)

"You sure give a lot of time to a series of games that you repeatedly claim to have given up on and repudiated. And, apparently, plan to give even more time to recording yourself playing them and then posting it on YouTube. I think that if I truly hated something with as much vitriol as you have expressed here, I wouldn't still be coming to this forum to proclaim said vitriol. Interesting."

Really. Me, I just toss them aside or use the disks as targets.

Have to say here that You are You and He is trying to be Himself so He doesn't have to think or act like YOU. That's what makes us unique in that we all do things a bit differently from someone else. It's part of life an it ain't goin nowhere.

He's got a right to complain to the moon and back 365 days a year if he wants to. He wants to get the word out to as many people as possible and you want to stifle him. That's not democratic. ) Let the man speak and since you say YOU wouldn't spend time complaining about something and waste your time what do you think you're doing now? Hrmmm? lol You're doing exactly what you're telling him he should not. Just supporting your own agenda and his doesn't matter.

I'm sorry but he doesn't want to inform .. he wants, for whatever wierd reason to pretend that AGEOD's AI is game-endingly awful. His claims would be more plausible if (a) he actually knew how it operated and how you can use the game settings or (b) started to set out a logic he thinks the AI should follow (no-one is asking him to code etc, just to think through what a 'better' AI looks like).

Now the simple reality is that AGEOD are a very small group of people utterly dedicated to producing highly detailed and realistic games set in periods that don't get much coverage - I mean where else can you find a scenario that covers late 17C warfare in N America?

So you can either dedicate yourself to trying to sabotage them (which is what ominus is doing) or support them by identifying real problems and feasible solutions?

This

One thing aaa missed is my last post is a *quote* from the Ageod forum where another took the guy to task.

If Ominus wants to spend time to tilt at windmills, that's his choice.

But it is doomed to fail. And I have seen really bad AIs from the C64 on.

[vaalen]

ORIGINAL: loki100

ORIGINAL: vaalen

ORIGINAL: loki100

generally good advice some of those settings make a huge difference.

If I am going to play any AGEOD game vs the AI I tend to give myself the hardest activation rule (ie inactive=immobile). If you play a side with poor leadership (Reds in Rus; Union in the Civil War, Austria in RoP) this will result in teeth grinding levels of frustration as you see an opportunity just slip away. On the other hand if you do this with a weak side but better leadership (Confederacy in Civil War, Prussia in RoP, France in WoN), when putting together a bold move you run a hell of a risk.

This setting also makes you very careful about campaigning up to winter as you risk having an army immobilised.

Add on the worst attrition setting (ie you can only replace if static and on a depot).

What you do is to create a situation where the AI becomes a challenge and where you face pretty realistic command problems. Using this setting I've had a couple of vs AI Rise of Prussia games go the full Seven Years (something you never see in PBEM) and it makes France in WoN into a challenge.

Loki100, I have played with the inactive immobile setting for myself, and it really makes the game more challenging. Have never had the courage to use the worst attrition setting, though. I salute you!

I first used it in vs AI RoP game using the Austrian side. The combination meant the game lasted the full seven years and the last two both sides were more or less reduced to being armed mobs (and small mobs at that) for the last 2 years. It remained a real challenge right to the end and ended in a draw.

Good thing was I didn't have to then optionally restrain what I did and since Prussia has better leadership Athena still had the tools she needed.

Loki, I just started a new WON game as France using your settings. Frustration does not begin to describe what I felt when the Austrian army escaped a carefully planned encirclement because Bernadotte refused to move for three straight turns. And Massena refuses to move toward Venice, though the Austrians seem to have abandoned the area. Much more challenging, and really recreates a feel for the period.

Thanks for sharing!

[aaatoysandmore]

But it is doomed to fail. And I have seen really bad AIs from the C64 on.

I've seen really good ones from the C64 and not so much onwards.

[Rosseau]

First thing I do when buying any Ageod game is mod it - rules, units, all I can, so it plays just how I like it and can make up for some AI flaws. I rarely win any scenario.

Of course, people will say you shouldn't have to mod the game, but I'm glad it is possible at least. I have not, and will not, buy a game I can't mod.

[altipueri]

Hi Rousseau, what are the main things you mod?

Is it easy to make a few significant changes - e.g. in Hearts of Iron it was a one line edit in one text file to alter the combat modifiers - that will be about the limit of any changes I can do.

This game is nearly there now - I just want this latest patch to go official and I will put more time in rather than just playing the Waterloo scenario.

[vaalen]

ORIGINAL: altipueri


This game is nearly there now - I just want this latest patch to go official and I will put more time in rather than just playing the Waterloo scenario.

The Campaign game is so much more than the Waterloo scenario, that I was astonished by the depth and enjoyment I have from playing it. Having to consider the whole map and situation in Europe, the Diplomatic and economic factors, the richness added by the national modifiers, and so much more.
It is almost there, and it does need some tweaking, but I can hardly stop playing it.