Minor question about Battlecruisers

[geofflambert]

This is a lot of blow about basic theory. Everyone is looking for something that makes the Dreadnought obsolete. As I have said, I believe the Queen Elizabeths to be exactly what everyone was looking for. Everything else was experiments and prototypes. The QEs were every bit as much a revolution as the Dreadnought]. Hood was superb in many ways but it couldn't take receiving shells lesser than the ones she was hurling herself. Once armoured sufficiently, while sacrificing speed, she would be the equal of most other WWII BBs, and shouldn't have feared any so much as to not engage. The POW was very well designed but undergunned. If handled correctly they should have defeated Bismark.

All that aside, how do simple threads like the one that was started here morph into what we see before us? The answer is, we do this because we can.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

This is a lot of blow about basic theory. Everyone is looking for something that makes the Dreadnought obsolete. As I have said, I believe the Queen Elizabeths to be exactly what everyone was looking for. Everything else was experiments and prototypes. The QEs were every bit as much a revolution as the Dreadnought]. Hood was superb in many ways but it couldn't take receiving shells lesser than the ones she was hurling herself. Once armoured sufficiently, while sacrificing speed, she would be the equal of most other WWII BBs, and shouldn't have feared any so much as to not engage. The POW was very well designed but undergunned. If handled correctly they should have defeated Bismark.

All that aside, how do simple threads like the one that was started here morph into what we see before us? The answer is, we do this because we can.

warspite1

That's a very sweeping statement. So what practically should Holland have done to avoid his ship being blown to smithereens? You know that PoW was suffering teething problems with her main guns (she still had dockyard workers aboard so quickly did she sail)?

[geofflambert]

POW had the armour to withstand Bismark's fire. Therefore POW should have closed with Bismark while Hood fired at range. This proves nothing, but I tried this strategy with "Fighting Steel" about thirty times and in every case prevailed. POW could sustain Bismark hits while Bismark could not sustain Hood hits. As I said, I tried this strategy (in a silly game) about thirty times and I never lost either POW or Hood and in every single case Bismark was sunk. Prince Eugene usually got away with minimal damage, and unfortunately that alone is a bit of a disaster, potentially. She simply couldn't carry enough fuel to make use of her freedom.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

POW had the armour to withstand Bismark's fire. Therefore POW should have closed with Bismark while Hood fired at range. This proves nothing, but I tried this strategy with "Fighting Steel" about thirty times and in every case prevailed. POW could sustain Bismark hits while Bismark could not sustain Hood hits. As I said, I tried this strategy (in a silly game) about thirty times and I never lost either POW or Hood and in every single case Bismark was sunk. Prince Eugene usually got away with minimal damage, and unfortunately that alone is a bit of a disaster, potentially. She simply couldn't carry enough fuel to make use of her freedom.

warspite1

But Hood had to close the range - her biggest weakness was from plunging shellfire - as was proven.

[geofflambert]

If she doesn't close, she's not a target. Doesn't matter whether it's plunging or not if it doesn't exist. What are you doing up this late? It's way past my bedtime. Is this going to be a contest about who falls asleep at his keyboard first?

[geofflambert]

I understand, this is gardening time in jolly old England, so that raises another question; why aren't you gardening or at least watering your plants instead of watering my comedy?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

If she doesn't close, she's not a target. Doesn't matter whether it's plunging or not if it doesn't exist. What are you doing up this late? It's way past my bedtime. Is this going to be a contest about who falls asleep at his keyboard first?

warspite1

If she doesn't close she's not a target.... but she can't hit Bismarck either [&:] - and you also have the PoW (complete with dodgy main armament) closing the two German ships alone. I'm not understanding your tactics - maybe this is standard Gorn battlefleet engagement practice - but sounds like a load of old toss (if you'll pardon the expression) [&:]

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

POW had the armour to withstand Bismark's fire. Therefore POW should have closed with Bismark while Hood fired at range. This proves nothing, but I tried this strategy with "Fighting Steel" about thirty times and in every case prevailed. POW could sustain Bismark hits while Bismark could not sustain Hood hits. As I said, I tried this strategy (in a silly game) about thirty times and I never lost either POW or Hood and in every single case Bismark was sunk. Prince Eugene usually got away with minimal damage, and unfortunately that alone is a bit of a disaster, potentially. She simply couldn't carry enough fuel to make use of her freedom.

warspite1

But Hood had to close the range - her biggest weakness was from plunging shellfire - as was proven.

What if Prince of Wales enter gun range before Hood? And then PoW close the range? Would Bismarck change their target once Hood is within range, or continue to shell Prince of Wales that they already have pinpointed?

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

I understand, this is gardening time in jolly old England, so that raises another question; why aren't you gardening or at least watering your plants instead of watering my comedy?

warspite1

a) I am not gardening because that is what I employ a gardener for
b) Please let me know when the comedy show begins


[:D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

POW had the armour to withstand Bismark's fire. Therefore POW should have closed with Bismark while Hood fired at range. This proves nothing, but I tried this strategy with "Fighting Steel" about thirty times and in every case prevailed. POW could sustain Bismark hits while Bismark could not sustain Hood hits. As I said, I tried this strategy (in a silly game) about thirty times and I never lost either POW or Hood and in every single case Bismark was sunk. Prince Eugene usually got away with minimal damage, and unfortunately that alone is a bit of a disaster, potentially. She simply couldn't carry enough fuel to make use of her freedom.

warspite1

But Hood had to close the range - her biggest weakness was from plunging shellfire - as was proven.

What if Prince of Wales enter gun range before Hood? And then PoW close the range? Would Bismarck change their target once Hood is within range, or continue to shell Prince of Wales that they already have pinpointed?

warspite1

Well that is a question I have asked previously. But I guess to put PoW in front would mean having to admit the Hood was no match for Bismarck - and maybe that unpalatable truth was not something Holland wanted to recognise. But whether, had PoW taken the lead, Bismarck and Prinz Eugen would have fired at her or Hood? We will never know but it makes sense for the 15-inch gunned ship to be prioritised perhaps.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

If she doesn't close, she's not a target. Doesn't matter whether it's plunging or not if it doesn't exist. What are you doing up this late? It's way past my bedtime. Is this going to be a contest about who falls asleep at his keyboard first?

warspite1

If she doesn't close she's not a target.... but she can't hit Bismarck either [&:] - and you also have the PoW (complete with dodgy main armament) closing the two German ships alone. I'm not understanding your tactics - maybe this is standard Gorn battlefleet engagement practice - but sounds like a load of old toss (if you'll pardon the expression) [&:]

If POW is closer,
Bismark will fire on POW, which most likely will be ineffectual. If Hood is 2k meters further away she absolutely can participate (with plunging fire) as her effective range exceeds Bismark's. If I'm wrong about that detail it is not relevant for if POW can fire on Bismark at x meters Hood can fire at x + 1000 meters. Case closed.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

POW had the armour to withstand Bismark's fire. Therefore POW should have closed with Bismark while Hood fired at range. This proves nothing, but I tried this strategy with "Fighting Steel" about thirty times and in every case prevailed. POW could sustain Bismark hits while Bismark could not sustain Hood hits. As I said, I tried this strategy (in a silly game) about thirty times and I never lost either POW or Hood and in every single case Bismark was sunk. Prince Eugene usually got away with minimal damage, and unfortunately that alone is a bit of a disaster, potentially. She simply couldn't carry enough fuel to make use of her freedom.

warspite1

But Hood had to close the range - her biggest weakness was from plunging shellfire - as was proven.

Well generally, in that game at least, Bismark always targets the closer BB. Now POW is as well armoured as anything and can be aggressive in that regard. Hood can sink anything afloat but the armouring (under way at the time) was incomplete. Whether it was or wasn't is moot; POW could have charged directly at Bismark without fear. The problem is she requires Hood's guns to deliver killing hits.

What if Prince of Wales enter gun range before Hood? And then PoW close the range? Would Bismarck change their target once Hood is within range, or continue to shell Prince of Wales that they already have pinpointed?

Sorry, I messed that up, this is my post:

Well generally, in that game at least, Bismark always targets the closer BB. Now POW is as well armoured as anything and can be aggressive in that regard. Hood can sink anything afloat but the armouring (under way at the time) was incomplete. Whether it was or wasn't is moot; POW could have charged directly at Bismark without fear. The problem is she requires Hood's guns to deliver killing hits.

[warspite1]

Well here is a good article on the subject and gives some clue as to why the Hood led PoW into battle.

http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... conclusion

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

But Hood had to close the range - her biggest weakness was from plunging shellfire - as was proven.

What if Prince of Wales enter gun range before Hood? And then PoW close the range? Would Bismarck change their target once Hood is within range, or continue to shell Prince of Wales that they already have pinpointed?

warspite1

Well that is a question I have asked previously. But I guess to put PoW in front would mean having to admit the Hood was no match for Bismarck - and maybe that unpalatable truth was not something Holland wanted to recognise. But whether, had PoW taken the lead, Bismarck and Prinz Eugen would have fired at her or Hood? We will never know but it makes sense for the 15-inch gunned ship to be prioritised perhaps.

It has been and is fashionable to ask people if they are for or against war. Being against war has surely never stopped one. Being against starting a war you will lose is as wise as Yoda could ever be. Hood's rate of fire was inferior to Bismark's but what difference does it make if Bismark is not firing on Hood but rather POW who can take it at long range or short. If Hood's fire is not answered (except perhaps by P.E., who cares? Hood was fully capable of sinking anything including the Bismark.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well here is a good article on the subject and gives some clue as to why the Hood led PoW into battle.

http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... conclusion

That was interesting. Thank you for sharing. [:)]

----

I entered this thinking it was a hindsight type of discussion, and not, in any way, a criticism of the British performance.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well here is a good article on the subject and gives some clue as to why the Hood led PoW into battle.

http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... conclusion

Haven't read this article yet, but if you're saying anything about POW's firepower, you are entirely missing the point.
POW could draw fire as well as any BB and could take the consequences as well or better than any other BB. Hood would be left to conduct target practice. Bismark was less well equipped to take her 15" shells than POW was equipped to take 16" shells.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: Orm



What if Prince of Wales enter gun range before Hood? And then PoW close the range? Would Bismarck change their target once Hood is within range, or continue to shell Prince of Wales that they already have pinpointed?

warspite1

Well that is a question I have asked previously. But I guess to put PoW in front would mean having to admit the Hood was no match for Bismarck - and maybe that unpalatable truth was not something Holland wanted to recognise. But whether, had PoW taken the lead, Bismarck and Prinz Eugen would have fired at her or Hood? We will never know but it makes sense for the 15-inch gunned ship to be prioritised perhaps.

It has been and is fashionable to ask people if they are for or against war. Being against war has surely never stopped one. Being against starting a war you will lose is as wise as Yoda could ever be. Hood's rate of fire was inferior to Bismark's but what difference does it make if Bismark is not firing on Hood but rather POW who can take it at long range or short. If Hood's fire is not answered (except perhaps by P.E., who cares? Hood was fully capable of sinking anything including the Bismark.

warspite1

And you MAY well be right - except you cannot talk like that is fact. You do not KNOW how Lutjens reacts. We can guess and debate an put forward our cases - but to state as fact things that we can never know is wrong.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well here is a good article on the subject and gives some clue as to why the Hood led PoW into battle.

http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... conclusion

Haven't read this article yet, but if you're saying anything about POW's firepower, you are entirely missing the point.
POW could draw fire as well as any BB and could take the consequences as well or better than any other BB. Hood would be left to conduct target practice. Bismark was less well equipped to take her 15" shells than POW was equipped to take 16" shells.

warspite1

What? [&:] 16-inch shells???

[geofflambert]

Bismark's rate of fire was for practicle purposes record breaking in that sort of caliber. If she was presented with the situation I propose, she might well have survived regardless of the range to Hood as long as Bismark disregarded POW as a larger threat no matter how close. I doubt that would have happened and Hood would have be comparatively excellent (longer) range artillery while Bismark was firing mostly ineffectually at POW who, whatever else you might say about it was armoured magnificently to fight the war in front of it.

[geofflambert]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: warspite1

Well here is a good article on the subject and gives some clue as to why the Hood led PoW into battle.

http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... conclusion

Haven't read this article yet, but if you're saying anything about POW's firepower, you are entirely missing the point.
POW could draw fire as well as any BB and could take the consequences as well or better than any other BB. Hood would be left to conduct target practice. Bismark was less well equipped to take her 15" shells than POW was equipped to take 16" shells.

warspite1

What? [&:] 16-inch shells???

I wasn't saying Bismark had 16" shells, merely that if POW and her class had to face ships like that they were about as well prepared as could be, within reason.

Hood was not prepared to receive such fire because it was designed and built under the BC concept (which I consider to be not very bright) but had not bee up armoured to WWII standards entirely when the Battle of Denmark Straits occurred.