Are Wargame AIs Fated to Suck?

[Ostwindflak]

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome. [:D]

[Aurelian]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome. [:D]

But then you can't use those Vassal modules

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome. [:D]

I wish they would actually.

[Ostwindflak]

Vassal is a good tool, but not all games can be found on it which is a shame.

[wings7]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome. [:D]

We definitely need to play more board war games! [:)] I'd still keep my computer...[;)]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: wings7

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome. [:D]

We definitely need to play more board war games! [:)] I'd still keep my computer...[;)]

warspite1

If I had the room in the house, if I had the time to devote, and if I had access to other human players, I would play the board version of World In Flames. However I don't. That is why computer versions of this type of game is such a godsend.

[Ostwindflak]

You could always rent out a climate controlled storage unit Warspite1 and set up there. [8D]

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

You could always rent out a climate controlled storage unit Warspite1 and set up there. [8D]

warspite1

Well yes, but all you have done is provided me with an answer for one problem (a lack of space) with the addition of another one (lack of spondoolicks). Furthermore, the other two problems - time and opponents - remains firmly in the obstacle dept. [;)]

[lecrop]

There are some excellente solitaire board wargames, like Silent War or RAF...

[Ostwindflak]

I concede your point Warspite1, I can't provide time to you. However if we were able to get some dedicated people, I could be persuaded to make a week long trip to England for a WiF or other game session. Providing of course we dedicate at least one night at the Highland Inn & Hotel Whiskey Bar. I have always wanted to visit that place!

[:)]

[Orm]

I notice that all your troubles can be solved with money. Time, space, and opponents can easily be solved by throwing huge amounts of cash at them. [;)]

Alas, without money it is tough to solve the time, and space, issue. Opponents might not need money although if you can spend it so that everyone can afford the time and travel to play then that helps solve the opponents issue as well.

[MrsWargamer]

The best board games have under 1000 counters and can ideally be played without another human opponent. Ideally they become study tools of 'what if'.

I seriously doubt I'd become a war gamer if I was to start today and have never played a board game version.

Computers are handy, but they lack the tactile feel and the ability to see the game without scrolling.

I've never considered an AI opponent to be an asset. I tend to not play games that can't be played without them. When I DO play the AI, well I'm also not really taking the simulation seriously either. Battle Academy vs the AI is at best just an arcade experience to me.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I concede your point Warspite1, I can't provide time to you. However if we were able to get some dedicated people, I could be persuaded to make a week long trip to England for a WiF or other game session. Providing of course we dedicate at least one night at the Highland Inn & Hotel Whiskey Bar. I have always wanted to visit that place!

[:)]

warspite1

Well the Highland Inn and Hotel Whiskey Bar is in the north of Scotland so I would need to make a trip too [:)]

I can see why you would want to visit the place. Beautiful scenery, fine food and drink and wargames. Sounds delightful [&o].

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: Orm

I notice that all your troubles can be solved with money. Time, space, and opponents can easily be solved by throwing huge amounts of cash at them. [;)]

Alas, without money it is tough to solve the time, and space, issue. Opponents might not need money although if you can spend it so that everyone can afford the time and travel to play then that helps solve the opponents issue as well.

warspite1

Right then. So I just need to win the lottery and get flippin' great wadges of cash together? Anyone got the winning numbers for next week?

[sIg3b]

ORIGINAL: wings7

ORIGINAL: Tesuji

Seriously? I´d say Wargames where the AI is remotely competitive without being given obscene material advantage can be counted on one hand.

I would be in the same boat as wodin & zak [:)]...what are the ones that you can count on one hand?

Some very old games like Empire Deluxe were simple enough to have a reasonably strong algorithm that "understands" the strategy.

And of course the Brad Wardell trick: Essentially, make the AI first, then make a game that suits it. GalCiv2 Dark Avatar has rather strong opponents, because the game simply excludes any features that the AI couldn´t handle well.

So yes, it can be done, in a limited way. But for a complicated historical Wargame, I believe a good AI is impossible. Say you made a PC version of Panzerblitz: I doubt it could have a strong AI. I choose Panzerblitz as an example, because it´s the least complicated of the old school boardgames.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

...

Right then. So I just need to win the lottery and get flippin' great wadges of cash together? Anyone got the winning numbers for next week?

when I was teaching social statistics at City University I used to delight in making sociology students (as opposed to those from a politics/economics background) work out why 1,2,3,4,5,6 was a plausible set of choices with precisely the same chance of winning as any other combination. So you could try that?

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: sulla05

Are you playing historically or are you just trying to game the rules and system?

I have to agree with this. Those who understand how the game works, how the numbers work and how decimals are rounded, how AI works, they play Civilization IV on hardest deity level and win against all the AI. Those who don't have the knowledge what make the game tick and make the best moves at all times (like I) are best to play it on middle difficulty levels.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Ostwindflak

I've solved it, we should all sell our computers and virtual games and go back to board gaming. Especially the big board war games. You're welcome. [:D]

Would you come to Finland and play with me? Or: what's wrong with PBEM?

[Mobeer]

1,2,3,4,5,6 is a terrible choice - it is as likely as any other combination, but huge numbers of people buy those numbers, so the shared payout is much lower than for other numbers

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Mobeer

1,2,3,4,5,6 is a terrible choice - it is as likely as any other combination, but huge numbers of people buy those numbers, so the shared payout is much lower than for other numbers

actually they don't.

point is people under-estimate the degree that a random number chain will produce apparently non-random outcomes, so believe that the likely order is something like 3-15-20-25-30-41 or whatever as that looks 'random'.

There is a neat test that you can use based on this belief to test if a sequence of data is made up.