Fortification not in a "base" location

[bradfordkay]

You and I rarely have, IIRC. BTW: I still miss your Flashman AARS...

[RogerJNeilson]

Indeed.

Kind of you to mention my Flashman AARs, I also miss them, but reality is with two games that I get a move for once a week on average for its not the material that generates AARs. I keep wondering whether to offer another game, but too many of my previous new starts have not gone the distance and there is nothing worse than starting an AAR then the game stops.

You have, however, just provoked an interesting thought in my head.

Roger

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

As far as I can tell:
1. the unit has to have engineers active.
2. the unit has to be in combat mode.

I have some Chinese units with forts of 5 in non-base hexes.

I forgot to say that I have achieved higher levels with Chinese units. This is in fact what made me think about it originally, because when I played the Allies I noticed Chinese Corps going to level 3 and upward, and I hadn't seen my IJA divisions doing this.

There are IJA divisions that don't have any engineers, but they will still dig in (slowly).

The units that I saw go higher are the bigger, frontline divisions. I had no weak divisions in that hex. I'll look back in a few minutes and give you a screenshot if applicable.

[Lokasenna]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

As far as I can tell:
1. the unit has to have engineers active.
2. the unit has to be in combat mode.

I have some Chinese units with forts of 5 in non-base hexes.

I forgot to say that I have achieved higher levels with Chinese units. This is in fact what made me think about it originally, because when I played the Allies I noticed Chinese Corps going to level 3 and upward, and I hadn't seen my IJA divisions doing this.

There are IJA divisions that don't have any engineers, but they will still dig in (slowly).

The units that I saw go higher are the bigger, frontline divisions. I had no weak divisions in that hex. I'll look back in a few minutes and give you a screenshot if applicable.

This is from some weeks back. I checked the units themselves - they were not listed as "building", so perhaps these are in fact the maximum levels. Note the tanks at 3, and the infantry at 2. However, I had been rotating the INF units and the tanks had been sitting there forever so that could just be an artifact of the time there. Note also the INF unit with 0 forts - it is moving on this particular day, which clears the forts level to 0. So don't start moving unless you mean it.

Note the HQ at 4. I clicked into the other HQ that is at 2 and it does not say "building" either.

[BillBrown]

You are right and I was wrong, you do not need engineers for the unit to make forts.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: obvert
One thing I'm sure many have learned, but might be useful for some, is that not all units can dig to above forts level 2. An IJA division sitting in a hex will dig to level 2 and never get past that even if it sits for months ( I haven't tried this with Allied units).

A brigade or another smaller unit with engineers will dig to at least forts 6, maybe higher, although I've not seen this. I've had Thai divisions at level 6.

An IJA division will dig to level 3 and beyond, up to level 6, if you split it into it's three regiments. This seems counterintuitive, but it works. Then if all units are the same fort level at some time later you can recombine them and keep the higher forts level.

I would need to revisit an old turn, but I am fairly certain that I recently had IJA units in the jungle with forts 4. Without dividing.

I've sat units for a good six months never getting above a level 2, and they had supply, so if yours did go above, that would be interesting for me.
Maybe mine are short on shovels? [:D]

What an interesting stuff, thanks. So the devs artificially restricted Japan IDs so that the game does not turn into a stalemate on land later.
I have another observation to boot - if you look at Japan border fortresses around USSR which sit in combat mode building forts forever, they seem to accumulate fort levels differently even when being identical units. I have one in the clear terrain with 4 forts, and another one with the same TOE in the WoodRough with 6 forts in May 43. They are in combat mode since start, static, not attacked ever and with supply all the time. Yet..

Edit: Also! I do have IJ infantry divisions with 3 forts in my AI game save. They siege enemy bases (Krasnoyarsk & Voroshilov) so looks like you can have forts above 2 at least when in base hexes

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

You are right and I was wrong, you do not need engineers for the unit to make forts.

I have noticed HQs and such with no engineers getting forts, but it seemed like it was only when their were other friendly units with engineers in the hex. The progression seemed to be that when the units with engineers got level 3 forts built the units without engineers would finally get a level built. In other instances where there were no engineers in the hex, I had units in situ for months with no forts built so I assume in the first example that the engineers assisted the other units at some point. Can't say for sure though as I did not keep a log of progress - or lack thereof.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

You are right and I was wrong, you do not need engineers for the unit to make forts.

I have noticed HQs and such with no engineers getting forts, but it seemed like it was only when their were other friendly units with engineers in the hex. The progression seemed to be that when the units with engineers got level 3 forts built the units without engineers would finally get a level built. In other instances where there were no engineers in the hex, I had units in situ for months with no forts built so I assume in the first example that the engineers assisted the other units at some point. Can't say for sure though as I did not keep a log of progress - or lack thereof.

The HQ units just appropriated someone else's fortifications. "Sorry boys, we need this dugout. You can go dig another."

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: obvert




I forgot to say that I have achieved higher levels with Chinese units. This is in fact what made me think about it originally, because when I played the Allies I noticed Chinese Corps going to level 3 and upward, and I hadn't seen my IJA divisions doing this.

There are IJA divisions that don't have any engineers, but they will still dig in (slowly).

The units that I saw go higher are the bigger, frontline divisions. I had no weak divisions in that hex. I'll look back in a few minutes and give you a screenshot if applicable.

This is from some weeks back. I checked the units themselves - they were not listed as "building", so perhaps these are in fact the maximum levels. Note the tanks at 3, and the infantry at 2. However, I had been rotating the INF units and the tanks had been sitting there forever so that could just be an artifact of the time there. Note also the INF unit with 0 forts - it is moving on this particular day, which clears the forts level to 0. So don't start moving unless you mean it.

Note the HQ at 4. I clicked into the other HQ that is at 2 and it does not say "building" either.

Very interesting. Curious to see if the IDs go over forts 2. I know I mentioned this in the game where it happened I'd had units sitting forever in Burma against Jocke's 500k Allied megastack, so I'll see if I can locate the posts, or even a save.

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: obvert
Very interesting. Curious to see if the IDs go over forts 2. I know I mentioned this in the game where it happened I'd had units sitting forever in Burma against Jocke's 500k Allied megastack, so I'll see if I can locate the posts, or even a save.

Took mine IJ IDs abount a month to get to forts 3 in enemy base hexes. Not all of them though. Will try later run some more turns in that save to see if all of them make it eventually and where is the final fort level

[Alfred]

What exactly is the point in presenting these wrong, and illogical, assertions when I've dealt with this in the past and recently.
 
There is no discrimination imposed on Japanese LCUs building forts outside of a base.  The same factors which apply to Allied LCUs apply equally to Japanese LCUs.  On what logical basis is it possible to assert otherwise?  Certainly not on what the devs have said.  Certainly not on what is in the manual.  Certainly not on what I have posted.
 
That some individual has only noted x fortification level has the same probative value as do all the vanity tests which are regularly conducted.  Basically none.  At best only limited cognisance of all the relevant variables have been taken into account.  So before jumping to such illogical conclusions and presenting them without further reflection as being how the game handles the issue, why not stop for a moment and consider why, as there is no difference between Japanese and Allied bases in building fortification levels, there would be one for non base fortification building.  Why would the devs have separate code?  How would the game design be improved by the existence of separate code?  On what basis could the devs justify having separate code which penalises the Japanese player?
 
I see no point in posting any of my 101 Guides or producing any other documentation, nor even quoting devs when I see the nonsense which is regularly sprouted by so many who are continually lost in the forest because they can't see it due to focussing on the tree which is casting a shadow over them.
 
A great disservice to inexperienced players is made when erroneous assertions are presented.  It is simply not acceptable to post without a duty of care in being accurate when posting.  Whilst there is currently no legal remedy against someone who does not exercise such a duty of care, there is a moral imperative to exercise such a duty. 
 
Alfred

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

What exactly is the point in presenting these wrong, and illogical, assertions when I've dealt with this in the past and recently.

There is no discrimination imposed on Japanese LCUs building forts outside of a base.  The same factors which apply to Allied LCUs apply equally to Japanese LCUs.  On what logical basis is it possible to assert otherwise?  Certainly not on what the devs have said.  Certainly not on what is in the manual.  Certainly not on what I have posted.

That some individual has only noted x fortification level has the same probative value as do all the vanity tests which are regularly conducted.  Basically none.  At best only limited cognisance of all the relevant variables have been taken into account.  So before jumping to such illogical conclusions and presenting them without further reflection as being how the game handles the issue, why not stop for a moment and consider why, as there is no difference between Japanese and Allied bases in building fortification levels, there would be one for non base fortification building.  Why would the devs have separate code?  How would the game design be improved by the existence of separate code?  On what basis could the devs justify having separate code which penalises the Japanese player?

I see no point in posting any of my 101 Guides or producing any other documentation, nor even quoting devs when I see the nonsense which is regularly sprouted by so many who are continually lost in the forest because they can't see it due to focussing on the tree which is casting a shadow over them.

A great disservice to inexperienced players is made when erroneous assertions are presented.  It is simply not acceptable to post without a duty of care in being accurate when posting.  Whilst there is currently no legal remedy against someone who does not exercise such a duty of care, there is a moral imperative to exercise such a duty. 

Alfred

Dude. If you want to kill a discussion give up the goods. The point is discussion leading to learning. I'm happy to be wrong, but not to be knowledge shamed. [:D]

[GetAssista]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
There is no discrimination imposed on Japanese LCUs building forts outside of a base.  The same factors which apply to Allied LCUs apply equally to Japanese LCUs.

Now that I had run through some vanity tests(c) in a small scenario I've constructed from Coral Sea by removing all Air/Sea OOB and AI, I can comment that factors ruling off-base fort construction are definitely not the same for IJA and for Allies, or at least for Chinese subset of Allies

In a nutshell, IJA divisions seem to be broken in a specific way. Not the way obvert described, but in that direction.
Fort construction for large infantry LCUs follows a pattern. Under ideal conditions (supply, no large fatigue/disruption) fort=1 is obtained on the second day of staying in combat mode, fort=2 in 8-13 days, fort=3 in 35-50 days. This is what all Chinese corpses/divs get. I did not test the whole spectrum of allied LCUs, might do it when I have spare time.

Japan is guaranteed this regular fort construction pattern in case of armor divisions and infantry brigades and regiments. With IDs the situation is different. It looks like IDs get some kind of a dice roll and some of them (not all) end up being very-very slow at fort construction above fort=1. It is the dice roll and not some specifics of a unit because I've got different laggards in different saves. You can get some IDs still at level 1 after couple months, while other IDs reach level 3 in the same hex. It can be remedied to an extent by dividing ID into a/b/c regiments, like obvert said.
Another strange fact is that speed of building is not linear through time in a sense that I had numerious occasions of ID reaching fort=2 before an assortment of brigades. And then all those brigades overtake and reach fort=3 and even fort=4 while ID stays at 2. Not very logical

Also, factors that do not matter or matter very marginally for the off-base fort building include: number of engineer squads in LCU/hex, commander stats, experience, type of terrain, presence/absence of enemy in the hex as long as it does not do hostile actions

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Alfred
There is no discrimination imposed on Japanese LCUs building forts outside of a base.  The same factors which apply to Allied LCUs apply equally to Japanese LCUs.

Now that I had run through some vanity tests(c) in a small scenario I've constructed from Coral Sea by removing all Air/Sea OOB and AI, I can comment that factors ruling off-base fort construction are definitely not the same for IJA and for Allies, or at least for Chinese subset of Allies

In a nutshell, IJA divisions seem to be broken in a specific way. Not the way obvert described, but in that direction.
Fort construction for large infantry LCUs follows a pattern. Under ideal conditions (supply, no large fatigue/disruption) fort=1 is obtained on the second day of staying in combat mode, fort=2 in 8-13 days, fort=3 in 35-50 days. This is what all Chinese corpses/divs get. I did not test the whole spectrum of allied LCUs, might do it when I have spare time.

Japan is guaranteed this regular fort construction pattern in case of armor divisions and infantry brigades and regiments. With IDs the situation is different. It looks like IDs get some kind of a dice roll and some of them (not all) end up being very-very slow at fort construction above fort=1. It is the dice roll and not some specifics of a unit because I've got different laggards in different saves. You can get some IDs still at level 1 after couple months, while other IDs reach level 3 in the same hex. It can be remedied to an extent by dividing ID into a/b/c regiments, like obvert said.
Another strange fact is that speed of building is not linear through time in a sense that I had numerious occasions of ID reaching fort=2 before an assortment of brigades. And then all those brigades overtake and reach fort=3 and even fort=4 while ID stays at 2. Not very logical

Also, factors that do not matter or matter very marginally for the off-base fort building include: number of engineer squads in LCU/hex, commander stats, experience, type of terrain, presence/absence of enemy in the hex as long as it does not do hostile actions

Good effort here. [:)]

I've been doing a smaller scale test, only using one IJA division and a few Allied divisions. I've not gotten this one, the 23rd ID, to build past forts 2 even after 7 months.

Do you have screen shots for yours? They help.

Here is something to show the one I've been looking at. The 23rd division is sitting just one hex outside Rabaul and built 2 forts quickly, then didn't build another. Plenty of supply.

[obvert]

I'll post more on this during the week as my tests come through levels of completion. These are all just examples from the middle, and not confirmed by multiple runs. I've run through a 7 1/2 month cycle twice now, and see exactly the same from the IJ units and the Allied units. This Aussie division (along with others) produced 3 forts in a non-base hex within 3-4 months. I'll look next time for more precise timing.

Interesting that this division has lower engineer equivalent to the IJ 23rd division. (39-53). The IJ unit though also has 100+ more total devices to fortify.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Alfred
There is no discrimination imposed on Japanese LCUs building forts outside of a base.  The same factors which apply to Allied LCUs apply equally to Japanese LCUs.

Now that I had run through some vanity tests(c) in a small scenario I've constructed from Coral Sea by removing all Air/Sea OOB and AI, I can comment that factors ruling off-base fort construction are definitely not the same for IJA and for Allies, or at least for Chinese subset of Allies

In a nutshell, IJA divisions seem to be broken in a specific way. Not the way obvert described, but in that direction.
Fort construction for large infantry LCUs follows a pattern. Under ideal conditions (supply, no large fatigue/disruption) fort=1 is obtained on the second day of staying in combat mode, fort=2 in 8-13 days, fort=3 in 35-50 days. This is what all Chinese corpses/divs get. I did not test the whole spectrum of allied LCUs, might do it when I have spare time.

Japan is guaranteed this regular fort construction pattern in case of armor divisions and infantry brigades and regiments. With IDs the situation is different. It looks like IDs get some kind of a dice roll and some of them (not all) end up being very-very slow at fort construction above fort=1. It is the dice roll and not some specifics of a unit because I've got different laggards in different saves. You can get some IDs still at level 1 after couple months, while other IDs reach level 3 in the same hex. It can be remedied to an extent by dividing ID into a/b/c regiments, like obvert said.
Another strange fact is that speed of building is not linear through time in a sense that I had numerious occasions of ID reaching fort=2 before an assortment of brigades. And then all those brigades overtake and reach fort=3 and even fort=4 while ID stays at 2. Not very logical

Also, factors that do not matter or matter very marginally for the off-base fort building include: number of engineer squads in LCU/hex, commander stats, experience, type of terrain, presence/absence of enemy in the hex as long as it does not do hostile actions

Question:

Does number of engineers/device in each unit affect time to fortify?

It seems like it would not considering IJA brigades only have 12 engineers most often, and regiments split from IDs of course have the same ratio as the IDs themselves, yet build forts faster.

It also doesn't seem it's total number of devices if the large Allied IDs like the Chinese Corps and the US Army and Aussie divisions I'm testing are going to forts 3-4 as quickly as the brigades and regiments.

[MakeeLearn]

Has anyone noticed does terrain have any impact on time to build and/or build level?


The manual only covers base/beach and non-base/beach.


P.S.

Your grenade sump looks too shallow.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

ORIGINAL: Alfred
There is no discrimination imposed on Japanese LCUs building forts outside of a base.  The same factors which apply to Allied LCUs apply equally to Japanese LCUs.

Now that I had run through some vanity tests(c) in a small scenario I've constructed from Coral Sea by removing all Air/Sea OOB and AI, I can comment that factors ruling off-base fort construction are definitely not the same for IJA and for Allies, or at least for Chinese subset of Allies

In a nutshell, IJA divisions seem to be broken in a specific way. Not the way obvert described, but in that direction.
Fort construction for large infantry LCUs follows a pattern. Under ideal conditions (supply, no large fatigue/disruption) fort=1 is obtained on the second day of staying in combat mode, fort=2 in 8-13 days, fort=3 in 35-50 days. This is what all Chinese corpses/divs get. I did not test the whole spectrum of allied LCUs, might do it when I have spare time.

Japan is guaranteed this regular fort construction pattern in case of armor divisions and infantry brigades and regiments. With IDs the situation is different. It looks like IDs get some kind of a dice roll and some of them (not all) end up being very-very slow at fort construction above fort=1. It is the dice roll and not some specifics of a unit because I've got different laggards in different saves. You can get some IDs still at level 1 after couple months, while other IDs reach level 3 in the same hex. It can be remedied to an extent by dividing ID into a/b/c regiments, like obvert said.
Another strange fact is that speed of building is not linear through time in a sense that I had numerious occasions of ID reaching fort=2 before an assortment of brigades. And then all those brigades overtake and reach fort=3 and even fort=4 while ID stays at 2. Not very logical

Also, factors that do not matter or matter very marginally for the off-base fort building include: number of engineer squads in LCU/hex, commander stats, experience, type of terrain, presence/absence of enemy in the hex as long as it does not do hostile actions

Question:

Does number of engineers/device in each unit affect time to fortify?

It seems like it would not considering IJA brigades only have 12 engineers most often, and regiments split from IDs of course have the same ratio as the IDs themselves, yet build forts faster.

It also doesn't seem it's total number of devices if the large Allied IDs like the Chinese Corps and the US Army and Aussie divisions I'm testing are going to forts 3-4 as quickly as the brigades and regiments.

Note that in the pictures you posted the IJA units don't have engineer vehicles but the Aussies do. Big difference in capability.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


Now that I had run through some vanity tests(c) in a small scenario I've constructed from Coral Sea by removing all Air/Sea OOB and AI, I can comment that factors ruling off-base fort construction are definitely not the same for IJA and for Allies, or at least for Chinese subset of Allies

In a nutshell, IJA divisions seem to be broken in a specific way. Not the way obvert described, but in that direction.
Fort construction for large infantry LCUs follows a pattern. Under ideal conditions (supply, no large fatigue/disruption) fort=1 is obtained on the second day of staying in combat mode, fort=2 in 8-13 days, fort=3 in 35-50 days. This is what all Chinese corpses/divs get. I did not test the whole spectrum of allied LCUs, might do it when I have spare time.

Japan is guaranteed this regular fort construction pattern in case of armor divisions and infantry brigades and regiments. With IDs the situation is different. It looks like IDs get some kind of a dice roll and some of them (not all) end up being very-very slow at fort construction above fort=1. It is the dice roll and not some specifics of a unit because I've got different laggards in different saves. You can get some IDs still at level 1 after couple months, while other IDs reach level 3 in the same hex. It can be remedied to an extent by dividing ID into a/b/c regiments, like obvert said.
Another strange fact is that speed of building is not linear through time in a sense that I had numerious occasions of ID reaching fort=2 before an assortment of brigades. And then all those brigades overtake and reach fort=3 and even fort=4 while ID stays at 2. Not very logical

Also, factors that do not matter or matter very marginally for the off-base fort building include: number of engineer squads in LCU/hex, commander stats, experience, type of terrain, presence/absence of enemy in the hex as long as it does not do hostile actions

Question:

Does number of engineers/device in each unit affect time to fortify?

It seems like it would not considering IJA brigades only have 12 engineers most often, and regiments split from IDs of course have the same ratio as the IDs themselves, yet build forts faster.

It also doesn't seem it's total number of devices if the large Allied IDs like the Chinese Corps and the US Army and Aussie divisions I'm testing are going to forts 3-4 as quickly as the brigades and regiments.

Note that in the pictures you posted the IJA units don't have engineer vehicles but the Aussies do. Big difference in capability.

Not sure if you saw my post above.

The IJA unit has 48 IJA engineers + 5 engineers = 53

The Aussi unit has 12 Aus Cmbt Eng 42 + 12 engineer + 3 engineer vehicles = 39 engineers [EDIT] (1 engineer vehicle equivalent to 5 x engineers)

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: MakeeLearn

Has anyone noticed does terrain have any impact on time to build and/or build level?


The manual only covers base/beach and non-base/beach.
P.S.

Your grenade sump looks too shallow.

Get Assista mentioned he had seen no correlation between terrain types and fort building speed.

I did not see any measurably big difference in Allied units fort building speeds, which in my test were in forest, forest rough, jungle and jungle rough terrains. The IJA unit is in jungle rough I believe.