First time using Oil rules

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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warspite1
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by warspite1 »

It's not a great stretch to imagine Japan fixing their management errors and getting a SYNTH program working.

But surely a “shortage of alloying and catalytic metals for the synthetic oil plants” (if that was the case) is more than management errors?
With Synths, I have always wondered why they remain essentially 'free' once constructed - wouldn't they be diverting a great quantity of coal otherwise on it's way to other sectors of the economy?

Probably because it was a board game with 30,000 pages of rules [:D] – there are plenty of things that would make it more realistic but at some point there is so much number-crunching the fun starts to escape….. Of course with a computer game the number crunching goes away, but given the basic game has yet to be finished, probably not sensible to go down that route....[;)]
Re: Spain and Hitler, etc., I think the true cost of aligning Spain to the Axis would be not just economic (with military knock-on effects), but political (with military knock-on effects). Hitler could not ally with Spain while Vichy France existed, to be able to give Morocco to Spain. First, one would have to instantly change all of Vichy France - everything, both territorial control and all military forces, including in mainland France - to Free France. The Empire was non-negotiable for Vichy.

Yes, there was a lengthy debate on this a while back and the above was the point I raised then. I like Joseignacio’s house rule because one of the problems I find with strategic games is they massively over-simplify Spain. Yes there was the economic cost to Germany – as Joseignacio’s house rule sets out to cover off - but there was also as per the above, a political cost.

1. Spain, 2. Italy and 3. Vichy France.
1 and 2 (in this scenario) are allies of Germany. They are also weak and potentially unreliable. France is not an ally (and regardless of what Petain thinks) and is going to get what’s coming to her at the end of the war. HOWEVER, of the three, Hitler is fully aware that Vichy France is also the best placed to defend her colonies from the British / Free French. But Hitler knows that he will have to commit troops to assist Spain and her defence if she becomes an ally.

And all of that does not even begin to cover how Hitler manages the three powers. The moment Hitler starts carving up Vichy, the game is up, and Petain’s whole plan (to save France and her Empire so she has a prominent place in the post WWII world) is seen as being for nothing.

Mussolini is already cheesed off that the easy spoils he joined the war for have not been forthcoming. Suddenly he sees bits of the French Empire handed out to Franco. That will go down like a cup of cold sick.

So potentially you would have the colonies of Vichy France (which has just been sold down the river) suddenly getting warm and fuzzy feelings about the Free French. Senegal (and its key port of Dakar) and Syria are beyond the immediate grab of the Axis, but Tunisia, Algeria, Corsica and Nice (all were in Mussolini’s demands to Hitler) are suddenly ripe for the plucking – and Mussolini can say that he is occupying these to forestall a move over to the Allies – and move as far west as Toulon to stop the French fleet sailing to North Africa. But the French in North Africa – already full of hate for the Italians – aren’t just going to invite them in – and neither are the French in Morocco when Spanish troops come a calling.

Hitler has eyes on his raison d’etre, and Lebensraum in the East, yet suddenly, in exchange for getting Gibraltar, the Germans have now got a mini war in the Mediterranean on his hands – none of which involves concentrating on or attacking the British – and he has, almost certainly, going to have to put troops into Metropolitan Vichy France because Petain’s Government is now a busted flush. Surely under this situation EVEN Laval isn’t going to be stepping in….

As kids nowadays love to say, that is just a mess - and a series of complications that Hitler did not need.
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Joseignacio
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Joseignacio »

ORIGINAL: brian brian



With Synths, I have always wondered why they remain essentially 'free' once constructed - wouldn't they be diverting a great quantity of coal otherwise on it's way to other sectors of the economy?



I don't think that GE, at least, could have coal shortage at the time, they had plenty of it in the Ruhr, it was a matter of increasing the workforce, which was easy in a GE in post-depression but still suffering serious unemployment. I don't think it would divert resources.
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Joseignacio
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Joseignacio »

ORIGINAL: warspite1
It's not a great stretch to imagine Japan fixing their management errors and getting a SYNTH program working.

But surely a “shortage of alloying and catalytic metals for the synthetic oil plants” (if that was the case) is more than management errors?

Now, that's another matter. However, GE managed to get strategic raw materials from friendly or neutral countries, for example part of the repayment of the GE help to nationalists to massacre spanish civilians in the Spanish Civil War was dirt-cheap Wolfram/Tungsten that Franco "sold" the GE until the menacing presence of the Allies made him stop.


Re: Spain and Hitler, etc., I think the true cost of aligning Spain to the Axis would be not just economic (with military knock-on effects), but political (with military knock-on effects). Hitler could not ally with Spain while Vichy France existed, to be able to give Morocco to Spain. First, one would have to instantly change all of Vichy France - everything, both territorial control and all military forces, including in mainland France - to Free France. The Empire was non-negotiable for Vichy.

Yes, there was a lengthy debate on this a while back and the above was the point I raised then. I like Joseignacio’s house rule because one of the problems I find with strategic games is they massively over-simplify Spain. Yes there was the economic cost to Germany – as Joseignacio’s house rule sets out to cover off - but there was also as per the above, a political cost.

1. Spain, 2. Italy and 3. Vichy France.
1 and 2 (in this scenario) are allies of Germany. They are also weak and potentially unreliable. France is not an ally (and regardless of what Petain thinks) and is going to get what’s coming to her at the end of the war. HOWEVER, of the three, Hitler is fully aware that Vichy France is also the best placed to defend her colonies from the British / Free French. But Hitler knows that he will have to commit troops to assist Spain and her defence if she becomes an ally.

And all of that does not even begin to cover how Hitler manages the three powers. The moment Hitler starts carving up Vichy, the game is up, and Petain’s whole plan (to save France and her Empire so she has a prominent place in the post WWII world) is seen as being for nothing.

Mussolini is already cheesed off that the easy spoils he joined the war for have not been forthcoming. Suddenly he sees bits of the French Empire handed out to Franco. That will go down like a cup of cold sick.

So potentially you would have the colonies of Vichy France (which has just been sold down the river) suddenly getting warm and fuzzy feelings about the Free French. Senegal (and its key port of Dakar) and Syria are beyond the immediate grab of the Axis, but Tunisia, Algeria, Corsica and Nice (all were in Mussolini’s demands to Hitler) are suddenly ripe for the plucking – and Mussolini can say that he is occupying these to forestall a move over to the Allies – and move as far west as Toulon to stop the French fleet sailing to North Africa. But the French in North Africa – already full of hate for the Italians – aren’t just going to invite them in – and neither are the French in Morocco when Spanish troops come a calling.

Hitler has eyes on his raison d’etre, and Lebensraum in the East, yet suddenly, in exchange for getting Gibraltar, the Germans have now got a mini war in the Mediterranean on his hands – none of which involves concentrating on or attacking the British – and he has, almost certainly, going to have to put troops into Metropolitan Vichy France because Petain’s Government is now a busted flush. Surely under this situation EVEN Laval isn’t going to be stepping in….

As kids nowadays love to say, that is just a mess - and a series of complications that Hitler did not need.

While all this may or not be true, in the game itself I find the house rule too unbalancing. Maybe that's why it is not in the WIF. BTW I forgot to say that you needed to have collapsed Vichy earlier, which goes along with what we are speculating about politics, cause they would have had to kick Petain and occupy Vichy earlier, for they wouldn't agree to surrender their colonies...

It was not my idea, but my "teacher of the game" anyway and I never doubted it was an optional. When we came to use it, in the game , Gibraltar fell extremely fast, the Med being effectively an Italian lake, especially if the JA blocked the Red Sea, as they used to do, rendering all the units in the Med unsupplied as long as they hold the block.

The invasion of Spain, even a declaration of war by the allies to Portugal in order to get an easy beachhead, and the Azores for antisub warfare, plus rebases to Europe, at that moment (if USA was at war) or in the future ended in a new front fo the GE, true, but one where they enjoyed the help of the (not weak) spanish army and mountain land, and on the other hand they get resources and factories from Spain.

Since the med is controlled by the Axis, the Argelian resource goes to them easily, plus possibilities to align Irak and maybe Persia, with their abundant oil resources...

I think it's cheap for the axis to spend 30 BP in exchange for 3 additional resources per turn (and 4 factories if needed), plus around 6-7 corps and one Div and Franco HQ dependiong on when they join, one of them a mech corps, and all of pretty good quality, only second to GE units, in the Axis. And some ships and pilots/planes, of course.

But the main thing is that although it creates a second front, it also (IMO) buys the GE more time for the continent invasion, and the CW and USA players many times get involved in Spain in huge offensives and forget about easier and more dangerous targets like France/Netherlands/Belgium.

tom730_slith
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by tom730_slith »

The big problem, as usual, was Hitler!
Even though several high ranking German military advisors urged a Mediterranean policy including taking Gibraltar, he was too obsessed with the East to change his priorities. It is also very true that with 3 potential "allies" (Italy, Spain, Vichy) with overlapping priorities and demands he was not able to keep them all in line. For this reason I like the fact that Jose includes collapsing Vichy as a prerequisite.
Spain had a lot to lose and Franco would need to get everything he could from Hitler for sure! Once he allowed Germans across his border, even without joining the Axis, it's a pretty sure thing that the Spanish Navy would be hearing from British Naval Air before long. Also the CW could grab the Canary Islands pretty easily.
But as the game allows for decisions beyond the historical, and even some that go against the nature of certain leaders, I like to have a better option to deal in Franco & his forces!
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Courtenay
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Courtenay »

Well, it would have helped the German cause if the first person they sent to Franco to negotiate Spain's entry to the war weren't a traitor. Read the wikipedia article on Operation Felix. It is fascinating. It also makes clear that a mere 15 BPs would not nearly have covered Franco's demands, which were designed to be more or less impossible to meet.
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Joseignacio
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Joseignacio »

It was 2 O-Chits. Plus vichy, and I consider it a bargain.
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by brian brian »

If German coal supplies were in such abundance, why was Hitler so obsessed with controlling the Donbass? (Site of a war today, even).

But overall, his ideological obsessions drove the war strategy, making much of this moot.

I think a combination of Morocco and trainloads upon trainloads of stuff would have gotten at least troop access. But the Axis couldn't reach Alexandria, either, and a drive across French Nirth Africa may have become a bigger challenge.
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by warspite1 »

ORIGINAL: brian brian

If German coal supplies were in such abundance, why was Hitler so obsessed with controlling the Donbass? (Site of a war today, even).

I think a combination of Morocco and trainloads upon trainloads of stuff would have gotten at least troop access. But the Axis couldn't reach Alexandria, either, and a drive across French Nirth Africa may have become a bigger challenge.
warspite1

Was Hitler specifically obsessed with the Donbass? My understanding was it was the Soviet Union in general and all the resources (oil, coal, wheat, nickel, Chromium etc) it could provide so that Germany would be self-sufficient like the US. With the conquest of northeast France and Poland the Germans had access to more coal, but can you ever have enough if your are A.Hitler [;)]?

I would have thought oil from the Caucasus was chief amongst these. What was the quote? Something like "If I don't get the oil from Maikop and Grozny I must end this war".


Now Maitland, now's your time!

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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Centuur »

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: brian brian

If German coal supplies were in such abundance, why was Hitler so obsessed with controlling the Donbass? (Site of a war today, even).

I think a combination of Morocco and trainloads upon trainloads of stuff would have gotten at least troop access. But the Axis couldn't reach Alexandria, either, and a drive across French Nirth Africa may have become a bigger challenge.
warspite1

Was Hitler specifically obsessed with the Donbass? My understanding was it was the Soviet Union in general and all the resources (oil, coal, wheat, nickel, Chromium etc) it could provide so that Germany would be self-sufficient like the US. With the conquest of northeast France and Poland the Germans had access to more coal, but can you ever have enough if your are A.Hitler [;)]?

I would have thought oil from the Caucasus was chief amongst these. What was the quote? Something like "If I don't get the oil from Maikop and Grozny I must end this war".



Yes, that's the quote from Hitler indeed. It was oil he was after. The Donbass was simply on the way to the oil...
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by tom730_slith »

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

It was 2 O-Chits. Plus vichy, and I consider it a bargain.


In Solitaire it is easily done! It might be a hard sell to an allied player...
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Joseignacio »

ORIGINAL: tom730

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

It was 2 O-Chits. Plus vichy, and I consider it a bargain.


In Solitaire it is easily done! It might be a hard sell to an allied player...

[:D] True, Bro! I suffered it, and won't take it again, then I didn't know it was a House Rule (or in the best case an optional).

Another Off Topic: If you select the Fast Start, you cannot select optionals afterwards? [:(]

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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Courtenay »

ORIGINAL: tom730

Another Off Topic: If you select the Fast Start, you cannot select optionals afterwards? [:(]

No. The fast start selects default optionals for you. The options are different for each scenario. The options for Barbarossa are much simpler than for Global War.
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Joseignacio
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Joseignacio »

Thanks. I use to play with like 95% of them at least, so I missed them in the shorter scenarios.

But after huge scrappings, I have had to restart like 4 times due to non-optimal deployments, so I was thinking about Fast Start. The problem is that you cannot personalize.

For example, I prefer not to play with the oil rule (In this I am weird I believe), and if it is on, or others which are important, then I cannot use that one.
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Orm »

You do know that you can change most of the optional rules after the game has begun?
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Joseignacio »

Nop, I didn't. To be true, it's time I take my own medicine and go through the Books or the Tutorials. I got by with my knowledge of WIF and the things I learnt here as people comment. I just sjimmed through the books years ago.

Trying to send back deployed units to the pool for a later assignment, seeing which plane belonged to which cv and so on... I really need to go through it ASAP if I am going to play againsst someone sometime soon.

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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by Hokum »

ORIGINAL: tom730

Thanks for the feedback!
Did Japan historically develop synthetic fuel the way the Germans did?

Japan had been trying to build up a synthetic fuel industry as early as 1937, mostly in Manchuria. The program was extremely ambitious, as the Japanese expected it to make up half of the domestic fuel consumption, but it was plagued by technical difficulties and a lack of know-how, and it peaked at around 10% of the original target in 1943, before going down as the overstretched merchant marine failed more and more to move resources around (without even mentioning the US subs).

It can be easily argued that the program hampered the Japanese war economy rather than the way around.
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RE: First time using Oil rules

Post by tom730_slith »

ORIGINAL: Hokum

ORIGINAL: tom730

Thanks for the feedback!
Did Japan historically develop synthetic fuel the way the Germans did?

Japan had been trying to build up a synthetic fuel industry as early as 1937, mostly in Manchuria. The program was extremely ambitious, as the Japanese expected it to make up half of the domestic fuel consumption, but it was plagued by technical difficulties and a lack of know-how, and it peaked at around 10% of the original target in 1943, before going down as the overstretched merchant marine failed more and more to move resources around (without even mentioning the US subs).

It can be easily argued that the program hampered the Japanese war economy rather than the way around.


In any case one of the greatest things about this game is playing "what if" and why not include stuff the major players were not successful at? This reminds me of the Atom Bomb option - although it is not currently an option, why shouldn't the Germans have the option to develop one? In my early board game version of WIF the Germans could do so...
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