[IMPROVEMENTS v1.12] Blind Phoenix launches and EMCON ruminations

[ComDev]

Game version?

[VilleYrjola]

v. 1.11 Service Release 7 - Build 906.26 so the latest one pushed to Steam.

Sorry for not including that in the original message containing the save file.

[Filitch]

Reproduced on 1.12 RC build 936.2. F-14 launch AIM-54 and AIM-7F only by RWR contacts detected and determined by E-2C's AN/ALR-59 PDS.

[User2]

Why whould anybody use 936.2 to test bugs while the latests RC is 936.5.
936.5: F-14 are not allowed to use AIM-54 with RWR targeting anymore. Uncertainty +-20nm is definitely too high.

[Filitch]

ORIGINAL: User2
Why whould anybody use 936.2 to test bugs while the latests RC is 936.5.
936.5: F-14 are not allowed to use AIM-54 with RWR targeting anymore. Uncertainty +-20nm is definitely too high.

You right. I installed 936.5. And reproduced bug. E-2C detected new contacts. F-14 switched status to Engage offensive (Executing BVR attack) and attacked hostile contacts.

[Lanzfeld]

Thank you for retesting. I knew I wasn't crazy!


Yes mine was the latest release version

[Filitch]

What I did wrong? I started "Basic Training Air Operations, 1983" scenario. Created EAW (mission class - Support) mission and assigned E-2Cs to it. Created CAP (mission class - Patrol, type - AAW Patrol) mission and assigned 2 F-14s to it. Set side doctrine, every mission doctrine EMCON settings "Radar - passive" and "Ignore EMCON while under attack - No". Hawkeye started first and was shutdown by MiGs while Tomcats takeoffs. Tomcats detected only missiles by Eyeball. Leader F-14 turned they radar on and both Tomcats launched different missiles - AIM-54, AIM-7F, AIM-9L. Version 936.6, database 465.
Why F-14 turned radar on? I confused. Thanks in advance for explanation.

[Filitch]

Update. Next run Tomcats after take off changed they status to "Engage offensive (Shotgun, engage opportunity targets)(Cranking)" and launched AIM-54 without turning radars on.
After missile launch status was changed to "Engage offensive (Shotgun, engage opportunity targets)(Executing BVR attack)". Radar was turned on.

[DWReese]

If it helps, I have a scenario that I created using Iranian F-14s. They activate the FCR radars, and fire their Phoenix missiles at their airborne targets as designed. When the US planes target the Iranian F-14s, the Tomcats have to turn to avoid the incoming US AA missiles. When the F-14s turn, they break contact with their own target, and their Phoenix goes blind, as it should. Since the Phoenix wasn't close enough to activate its own radar, it ends up self-destructing. The bottom line is, everything seems to work perfectly on my end. Again, my F-14s are Iranian, and the situation is a little different, but perhaps my info could be beneficial to you.

Doug

[ComDev]

Hm the Phoenix missiles should switch to autopilot, not self-destruct like normal SARH. Are you sure this happened?

[ComDev]

ORIGINAL: Filitch

Update. Next run Tomcats after take off changed they status to "Engage offensive (Shotgun, engage opportunity targets)(Cranking)" and launched AIM-54 without turning radars on.
After missile launch status was changed to "Engage offensive (Shotgun, engage opportunity targets)(Executing BVR attack)". Radar was turned on.

Could you post a savegame please?

[ComDev]

ORIGINAL: Rosmarus

This time I launched a flight of four F-14s with their radars off and E-2C with its radar off. E-2C was able to identify FCR contacts with its ELINT sensor and after the positive ENY identification was made F-14s fired their AIM-54s with only passive sensor contacts from my side. I have a save file of this happening attached to this message.

I tested this in the latest v1.12 RC and the F-14s fire the AIM-54s only when the MiG contacts are firm. Since the radars have been ordered off, the AIM-54s are fired active straight off the rail.

[VilleYrjola]

Seems to be the same behaviour and I understand what happens. But how realistic is this, AFAIK AIM-54s do not really have a combat record but there must've been tactics ready for their use, was this kind of active launching considered feasible back when it was in use?

[DWReese]

Ragnar,

It worked as it should. When it was no longer being controlled, it started searching, and when it couldn't find a target it eventually just eventually just ceased to exist. I don't believe that there was anything with my scenario. Everything seemed to be fine.

Doug

[Dimitris]

ORIGINAL: Rosmarus
Seems to be the same behaviour and I understand what happens. But how realistic is this, AFAIK AIM-54s do not really have a combat record but there must've been tactics ready for their use, was this kind of active launching considered feasible back when it was in use?

1. Yes, AFAIK it is possible to launch in "TARH right off the bat" mode against targets close-in. It is also possible to use "traditional SARH" under the same circumstances if the radar is available. Kurt Plummer describes such a shot during the AIM-54 service trials:

In another 'miracle mile' event, an F-14, firing at a BQM-34A with an initial setup of 10,000ft and Mach .72 vs 50ft and Mach .75 at 22nm separation showed the weapon intercepted at around 16nm in 54 seconds. DESPITE being a SARH-PDSTT all the way (no firing lag to account for time share TWS on multiple missiles) in nominally 'snap down' assisted conditions for acceleration, where there was no time spent climbing to the loft. DESPITE the fact that the missile was indeed /powered throughout the flight/. Average Missile Mach was only 1.88.

2. AIM-54s have an interesting combat record, with the Iranian air force. Against unprepared fighters they were reportedly quite effective. ACIG has some articles on this IIRC.

[Filitch]

emsoy
Could you post a savegame please?

Please, saved game. Hope, it will useful.

[ComDev]

Thanks!

I see what you mean, this is already on my to-do list.