CMANO players' opinions on realism in Cold Waters

[CCIP-subsim]

I think both the damage model and the torpedo evasion are there as compromises for playability - I agree with Sunburn that we don't have data from combat, but at least the technical data we have does suggest that your margin of error for sub to sub combat is pretty darn small. As in, in real world terms, you rarely get to screw up more than once, giving away your position at all tends to be very fatal, and the vast majority of the time subs will be dead within a few seconds of knowing they're under attack in the first place. CMANO tends to represent that well, but CMANO is also not a vehicle sim and in most cases you have other units to work with that expand your awareness and make sub losses make more sense, if nothing else. The way CW is set up, I think it'd be a pretty frustrating game without the ability to recover from your screw-ups - it's unforgiving even as it is.
IMO, that's solid game design that I can't really argue with. And I don't think it pretends to be more realistic than it is.
I think we also have to concede that when the goal is to make a Cold-War-Gone-Hot scenario fun and cool-looking, you gotta make some compromises to realism anyway - cause in the real world, it would've been neither!

[Cik]

well right. you can still die. generally though it takes more than 5~ torpedoes to kill a determined player in an LA. the low survival % scenario is generally when you are wedged between a diving torpedo and one coming straight on. if you do a knuckle turn nose/ballast high maneuver to dodge the one abeam you will die to the diving one most of the time.

the game gets very hard when the weather is not cooperative. if the ocean is quiet and there is no layer and the enemy has udaloy, prepare to die to 20+ rocket-assisted torpedoes at a moment's notice.

still fun game though.

[Wiz33]

It's a spiritual successor to Red Storm Rising from Micropose according to the Dev and it plays like it. It was one of the few semi realistic modern naval game in the 80's which brings back a lot of memories. I've spent countless hours playing Grey Sea, Grey Sky from Simulation Canada (which was probably the first) and North Atlantic 86 by SSI in 1983, RSR in 88 followed by Harpoon by 360 and EA's 688 in 89.

If you've have been hoping for a RSR remake then this is it. Sure. it's not going to be the most accurate simulation but none of the ones in the non-classified world is. the way you "dogfight" a torp may seems a bit arcade But being able to see the torp is a artistic license and also due to the fact that that info in not currently available within the game UI/HUD and the lack of a verbal input from the crew. The damage modeling is based on difficulty so going to realistic or hard and you'll be lucky to survive one torp hit (well maybe a light torp). The Torp seeker logic seems to be good and I have seen player being hunted by their own torp by following too close and getting into the torps seeker cone.

Cold Waters is a very good game on it's own and since it's highly moddable, i'm sure we'll see some amazing mods for it in the near future. There are times that I want a lighter simulation game that's more relaxed and this fits the bill.

If you think the torp evasion is too arcade. Go watch this guy's Cold Waters videos. He served on a 688 for many years and seems to know what he's talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9bMgC ... sK9GtzM5dQ

Another one from someone who seems to have some experience with modern subs:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCHI1LI ... hXlw6ZDtOQ

[Cik]

ORIGINAL: Wiz33

I have seen player being hunted by their own torp by following too close and getting into the torps seeker cone.

guilty. i had sunk probably 30+ soviet ships in one campaign. the campaign ended when 4+ decoys knuckle turn/dive maneuver failed to decoy my own mk48 when it hooked around an enemy sub touching the bottom and came right at me.

i was not pleased.

[Marder]

ORIGINAL: Sunburn



The genre needs games like CW as much as games like CMANO.

thats right.

[Wiz33]

Also. What is realism? While I have been playing naval games for years (I was on the Beta Team for North Atlantic 86 and my name was in the Original Harpoon Strategy guide). I never got into any of the sub sims like Silent Hunter and the 688/Seawolf/Dangerous Water series. Is it realism when you have to man all the varies station all by yourself? If I'm the captain, I have others to do that for me (with me watching over their shoulder at time). I don't need to sit and watch the waterfall, draw up TMA on a chart or sit on helm and drive/dive the boat.

[mikeCK]

I agree 100%. As the Captain, all I need to say is "work up a solution to contact S-1" and then "position the boat here" and finally "fire"

I dont think it makes a game unrealistic because I'm not running around managing all the stations. I've played a bit of CW now and from what I can tell and have read, the calculations under the hood for detection, layers and targeting are pretty involved

[Dysta]

I think those symptoms can be called "Nanomanagement Syndrome". Overcaring every single manipulative details in real life and wish to replicate them all in game/simulator for the sake of realism. For championship-based game they are redundancies, but as an educational demonstrators they are useful for someone who have similar professions. Like Flight Simulator, not designed for MOBA keyboard-smashers, but for a hardcore plane fans, or entry-level student to learn about aircraft functionality.