Question about AI's use of radar

[Gunner98]

Doug

I used the marker sides to satisfy conditions.

The premise is that you win by accumulating points and killing the two nuc assets. Like I said before, I am not a lua wizard so I just figured out this way of achieving the effect.

Marker 1 side goes friendly to both US and Russia when the Nodong is killed - doesn't matter who kills it. Since both sides get points when it is killed all are happy
Marker 2 side is the same for the Sinpo

Each side has several point thresholds for victory check. The Russians are lower because they have fewer targets that they can effectively hit with the assets they have.

When a side reaches that threshold, the event is triggered BUT both conditions need to be met (both Nuc assets destroyed = both marker sides are friendly). If the conditions are not met you need to achieve the next point count check.

It all goes horribly wrong if you take too much time to kill the nucs so everyone loses. With this I hoped to set up a 'race' type feeling where both sides are running against each other to destroy NKs capability before Armageddon strikes.

I am certain that the Lua Wizards could make this process much slicker but it does prove you can do a lot with the basic event manager.

Hope that helps.

B

[DWReese]

Gunner,

I really enjoy the Korean scenario because it is much different than the others. I think that it is obvious that the United States could bring forth enough assets to destroy North Korea's military. It issue, however, is can they do it quick enough to prevent a nuclear attack. The urgency, and the fact that the US is working with other states to prevent this, makes this scenario a lot of fun.

I do hope that a few spinoff scenarios could stem from this one. It would be nice to have a revised scenario to be played without the help of the Russians, or with a variable time element which is a little more random. I have added (and subtracted) a few things to my version of it that attempts to accomplish some of those goals.

All-in-all, the original is one of the best scenarios around.

Doug

[Gunner98]

Thanks, glad you enjoyed it.

I won't be building any spinoff scenarios any time soon. Will leave that to others. Am working on a few other projects that are keeping me quite busy.

If you like different, have you tried Pole Positions?

B

[DWReese]

Gunner,

I have purchased Pole Positions (I actually own every one of the scenarios, as I try to keep the company afloat <lol>), but I haven't tried it as of yet.

Through the various scenarios (beginning to now) you can see how designers have copied ideas from others and incorporated them into the newer scenarios. In fact, I have incorporated several of the new ideas into my own scenarios. All of my previous scenarios were really small, hence no need for formation editor issues, and most primarily dealt with air attacks.

I really like how you assigned some of your TFs with plotted courses, yet also assigned them to various missions, as well. The idea seems to work nicely as long as the orders don't overlap. I used your plotted course idea, and added some way points where radars were activated. Then, I checked on the mission to see if the EMCON would be changed due to a conflict in orders. It wasn't, but I'm not 100% sure that it couldn't be. This is what I was trying to mention yesterday. The course says to do one thing, but the mission is in conflict with it.

In any case, thanks again fr all of your help. I'm going to go check out Pole Positions now. Maybe it will have a few new fun things to see.

Doug

[kevinkins]

[/quote]

Through the various scenarios (beginning to now) you can see how designers have copied ideas from others and incorporated them into the newer scenarios. In fact, I have incorporated several of the new ideas into my own scenarios. All of my previous scenarios were really small, hence no need for formation editor issues, and most primarily dealt with air attacks.

I am stunned by this remark since it came out of no where. No Command designer that hangs here steals anything!!! We borrow lua code and operational ideas from the News. That's it - and it's fun. Scenarios are original to the designer. Nothing is copied.

Respectfully

Kevin

[Cik]

that's exactly right kevinkin. i am aghast at the idea of anybody stealing anything!!!

Respectfully

Cik

[DWReese]

Who said anything about "stealing" anything?

What was said was by me (not Gunner) and what was meant (by me) was that by watching other designers, you can copy their IDEAS (ways of doing things) and incorporate them into newer scenarios. By that, I meant that using things like lua, Event Editor, or Special Actions (which not too many have used very much as of yet) to accomplish things. Most of these things (like lua codes) are foreign to many of us, and the fact that others have managed to uncover and share various tips and secrets to help us to do somethings that we didn't know was even possible is really helpful. It's very helpful to open up a scenario and see how someone else does something so that the concept can being used to do similar things in your own creations.

Stealing? On the contrary. I was giving the previous developers props for shortening the learning curve for rest of us, not taking anything away from them. I certainly didn't call anyone a thief. Go back and read the thread to get the complete meaning. No one said anything about stealing. That was YOUR word.

Now, your comment about being "stunned" is a way too dramatic, wouldn't you say?

You said, "Stunned because it came out of nowhere."

First, it wasn't directed AT YOU, so nothing can come "out of nowhere" if you weren't involved in the conversation in the first place. That's a grammatical inconsistency to say that you were stunned. You have to be IN THE CONVERSATION, before something can come out of nowhere. Since you weren't IN THE CONVERSATION, it's impossible to be "stunned."

Second, you completely misinterpreted what was said. Again, no one used the word "steal", so again you are way off base.

Third, either English isn't your first language, or the use of the word "stunned" was way over-the-top dramtic, to say the least. Next, I half expect to hear, "appalled", or even "aghast" being used. Stunned? Seriously?

Doug

[thewood1]

must resist...

[kevinkins]

Thanks for your clarification on stealing vs copying. In the digital/technical world, "copying" is a dangerous word to use e.g "copy-paste" or "copyright" or the infamous "copycat". In science, we avoid the word altogether if at all possible. The two words often mean the same end result. That's why I was stunned by it's use in this forum. Players do expect to see attribution when code or big ideas are "borrowed" from other designers. It is always a good practice to design a scenario from scratch and not edit someone else's to get a head start. That practice avoids a lot of issues down the line. It becomes easy to forget who designed what when someone edits an existing scenario file full of good ideas and lua code. In the end, the head start is not worth the confusion. I know it's semantics, but "copying" is a loaded word. Opening a scenario to learn how things are implemented is perfectly fine as long as the designer gives credit when it's due i.e for borrowing novel ideas and large chunks of code. I think this clarification is important. Copying without giving credit should not happen.

Kevin

[DWReese]

Kevin,

I apologize if my use of what was apparently "computer terminology" confused you. I meant no disrespect.

I, and most of the rest of the gamers here, are merely game players. We barely understand why things work the way that they do. We are still trying to figure out "why" something worked "this time", but didn't work the next time. This game is very complex.

When you start introducing lua, and other things, many of us are almost completely lost. The ONLY WAY that I could EVER get lua to work for me is if I see the formula written in someone else's scenario, and then copy those same words into my scenario and change the name of the unit. And, all of this is just to get the unit to turn its radar on. I don't think that that is so egregious. You can't seriously be "stunned" because I want my unit's radar to be turned on.

Your concept of "stealing" or "copying" is coming from programmers' perspective. Most of us are not programmers. Most are simply game players. Most (my estimation) have real trouble with things like lua, but are too afraid to ask any questions because they will be belittled by the "unofficial bully" (not you) of the forum. They will be told to "go read this" and to not come back. Well, they can read all they want, but if they don't understand the language (lua or Chinese) it won't matter what they are reading because they don't understand it.

So, most of us try to get things to work on their own. If WE aren't successful, then ultimately WE give up. If everyone ultimately gives up, then they stop playing the game. If you read through the various threads, you will see that many different and unrelated people have indicated that lua is too far advanced for them. If WE are able to see what others have done in other scenarios to turn on the radar and to implement it into our modified scenario, then that's about as far as many of us will ever get to go. I don't think that that is a bad thing.

The bottom line is, most of US have no clue how to do the things that you (and many other programmers) take for granted. So, it isn't US that you have to worry about "stealing" anything. We barely know how to tie our own proverbial shoes with this game as opposed to "copying" someone else's fantastic ideas, etc. for a scenario.

So, don't be alarmed at the phraseology that WE use. We are naive, and mean no offense. That's like taking someone to a baseball game and then getting angry at them when they ask how many POINTS did our team get. Any baseball fan easily knows that baseball counts things in RUNS, not points, yet the concept is the same.

Your "stunned" status need not be concerned about the game players (like myself) who don't know anything with regard to "stealing." If the "stealing" of ideas, etc., actually goes on, then the stealing is done by other actual designers, (such as by people who have skills like yourself), and who actually knows the difference between the terms "copying" and "stealing", and are subsequently "stunned" or "appalled" at such behavior. The rest of US are just dumb schmucks trying to get lua to turn our radars on. <G>

Doug

[stilesw]

WTF?! Where did this come from? I am "stunned" that anything negative could have been construed from DWReese's comment. I have perused many, many scenarios from the Community Pack, Standalone submissions and other contributions from the many CMANO folks. This was done to learn how things were made and how Lua worked -I have a programming background but had never seen Lua before. The idea that anyone was/is stealing or violating copyright rules is ludicrous to me. I have used many ideas from others that I found in the scenario development editor and Lua scripting created by others. I have modified many scenarios to try different things - "Deter, Detect, Defend 1962", "Changjiang Strike, 2016" and "Down Town, 1967" to name a few. The idea of posting one of these modified scenarios without giving credit to the original author never even crossed my mind.

I think that sometimes we are too "sensitive" to perceived intent instead of focusing on the actual content of posts. Let's enjoy, contribute to and, when possible, enhance this wonderful simulation and its member community.

I thank you all in the CMANO world and hope we can focus on the good.

My

-Wayne Stiles

[kevinkins]

Doug

I just did not want: "you can see how designers have copied ideas from others and incorporated them into the newer scenarios."
stand in the thread without clarification. It implies that there is rampant plagiarism among designers. This has not been my experience over the past year. I also wanted make sure newer players understand it's OK to use ideas and code from others. Just give them credit in in the briefing. Just mention the source scenario if you do not know the designer's name and all is OK. You are right. I am over sensitive to the term "copy". In many fields, it's a "four letter word" to be avoided.

Kevin

[mikmykWS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wVagQ_LVd4

[MikeJ271]

ORIGINAL: DWReese
When you start introducing lua, and other things, many of us are almost completely lost. The ONLY WAY that I could EVER get lua to work for me is if I see the formula written in someone else's scenario, and then copy those same words into my scenario and change the name of the unit. And, all of this is just to get the unit to turn its radar on. I don't think that that is so egregious. You can't seriously be "stunned" because I want my unit's radar to be turned on.

Your concept of "stealing" or "copying" is coming from programmers' perspective. Most of us are not programmers. Most are simply game players. Most (my estimation) have real trouble with things like lua, but are too afraid to ask any questions because they will be belittled by the "unofficial bully" (not you) of the forum. They will be told to "go read this" and to not come back. Well, they can read all they want, but if they don't understand the language (lua or Chinese) it won't matter what they are reading because they don't understand it.

So, most of us try to get things to work on their own. If WE aren't successful, then ultimately WE give up. If everyone ultimately gives up, then they stop playing the game. If you read through the various threads, you will see that many different and unrelated people have indicated that lua is too far advanced for them. If WE are able to see what others have done in other scenarios to turn on the radar and to implement it into our modified scenario, then that's about as far as many of us will ever get to go. I don't think that that is a bad thing.

A very good point, which gets to the nub of my feelings about CMANO, and this forum.

In terms of the latter, I’m very reluctant to ask questions, owing to the presence of the “unofficial bully”, who you sense is just waiting to make his presence felt. (I’m catching up with the forum after a few days, and I see he’s done it again in another thread, to a new player.) And to be frank, my view is that people could be forgiven for thinking that from certain quarters, he’s regarded as a “useful idiot”, who helps to prevent people asking simple questions, even where the answer isn’t anything like obvious. I can’t think of another reason that his behaviour would be tolerated to quite the extent that it appears to be. That behaviour makes this forum quite unpleasant to read, let alone get more involved with as a contributor. Locking a thread once it's happened is pointless if the matter isn't going to be addressed.


As for CMANO itself, I’m certainly a fan, and play it more than all my other games/simulations combined - several times over. And I also like tinkering with my own scenarios or messing with published ones – all strictly for my own use.
However, CMANO still has its limitations - and sometimes these are highlighted by those same simple questions. As far as I'm concerned, in respect of some of these, the now-familiar response of “Just do it with Lua” is non sequitur. Having been involved in networking and suchlike, I’m far from computer illiterate, but to put it bluntly, I don’t know coding (any language), and have never been able to get my head around it. Therefore, until or unless someone does what I’m trying to do, or points out how to do it on this forum, I’ll continue to get stuck. But as already noted, I certainly won’t be asking how to do certain things on here anytime soon, and that’s principally because of the attitude of some of the forum users.

[thewood1]

To the lua point...lua was put in so you could get around limitations. I am fairly tired of people complaining about lua as an answer. Every game has limitations, the devs continue to add features to an already feature-rich game, they haven't charged a thing for almost all of them, and lua is there got get us players by. What more do you want from the devs? Would you prefer lua be removed? They could have left it out and you would just have to wait on the development cycle.

As to being a bully, don't care what you think. There are a few basic types of people on this board...

1) Just regular players looking for content, discussion, etc.
2) Players helping players...people putting an effort into answering questions and showing where to get info
3) People who contribute a lot of content and keep the game exciting
4) And then there are the guys like you and a few others that never contribute, never post, never help, etc. But want their opinion suddenly heard.

and...

5) Time wasters...POS, ballyhoo and a few other from down memory lane. Buy the game, don't want to learn it, but expect #2 above and the devs to answer questions over and over again, even after being answered multiple times. Ballyhoo had one particular question answered three times in two different threads. He dragged six people into that swirling hole of a thread. He outright stated he didn't like to read and use any of the documentation. That first thread started out with a couple of us trying to help him. He wasn't even reading the responses and then started an entirely new thread asking the exact same question. He never even looked at then hot key list.

I really don't care what someone like you, who sure has the time to throw your opinion around but not step into help a new player answer a question, thinks. How many times have you helped a new player? Lists the posts for me. That thread went on for three days and not one of you guys who posted thinking I am some kind of bully tried to help. If you have the patience to help someone who won't read the manual or even look at a freakin hot key list, then man up and do it. Otherwise, I am not sure why you even bother posting.

btw...for every non-helpful person who suddenly had the time to post their concerns about how new players might perceive the board, I have two PMs thanking me and asking me to keep doing what I am doing. So before you guys start melting or posting at the bottom of old threads, step up and help new players. There are three or four threads where new players are asking stuff. Maybe I'll see you there, but I doubt it.

[kevinkins]

Retracted upon further reflection. Tamas sums it up below.

Kevin

[Tamas]

Being a lurker here, I understand if somebody has problem with thewood1's style. It might not make people feel welcome.

However, as I can recall, he has been a great help to the community. If you think his voice is the loudest when it comes to answering questions on the forum, and you don't like his tone, maybe a solution would be for others in the community to step up as well, and help out.

From thewood1, I'd like to ask a bit more patience and courtesy. Yes, I am aware new players tend to ask things that seem blatantly trivial for an experienced player, and things that are already well documented, but new blood is a precious commodity in our hobby, and they should feel welcome.

[Randomizer]

Agree with Tamas, thewood1 is a net contributor to the community and while some may occasionally be offended by his style, I would argue that he has added much and subtracted little. On anonymous Internet forums like this, people are too quick to take offence when called out for counter-productive posts, topic spamming and sometimes what can only be classified as shear stupidity. Thewood1 helps keep all of us who care about the community a bit more honest.

-C

[MikeJ271]

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Agree with Tamas, thewood1 is a net contributor to the community and while some may occasionally be offended by his style, I would argue that he has added much and subtracted little. On anonymous Internet forums like this, people are too quick to take offence when called out for counter-productive posts, topic spamming and sometimes what can only be classified as shear stupidity. Thewood1 helps keep all of us who care about the community a bit more honest.

-C

A few points:

a) Other people also provide help. They manage it without being aggressive and rude. And if they can do it…

b) Far from writing this off as how some people may “occasionally be offended by his style”, the fact is that you and I have no idea how many others don’t bother using the forum because of this type of behaviour. Furthermore, we also have no idea how many people considering buying what is an expensive game, look at the forum beforehand as part of the decision-making process – and then decide not to bother. You may think there aren’t any, but you probably shouldn’t bet your house on that being the case. If what would be regarded as the most likely source of online support gives an impression of being dominated by a somewhat protectionist, elitist clique, it shouldn’t be a surprise if that actually puts folk off altogether.
And if that possibility doesn’t concern regular forum users, the perception is arguably correct anyway.

c) In line with the previous point, the guy you “agreed” with also suggested that the forum member in question might want to try moderating his behaviour a bit, to hopefully avoid putting new players off. That was quite an important part of the post.


One other thing about this: For me, easily the biggest weakness of CMANO is the supporting literature. Like many other applications where there’s been a relatively rapid development process, the documentation simply hasn’t kept pace. And while there’s always going to be a resource trade-off between updating software or documentation, the former is usually going to win that battle because it’s understandably more “fun” to do, and, given the commercial potential, more lucrative.

But that does not support the new user experience. Putting all the existing material in one place helps, but IMO only to a (very) limited extent. Simply referring new players to all of the addenda, FAQ’s and additional articles, and especially the now dated-in-parts main manual, isn’t addressing the fundamental issue; new players won’t be aware of which bits are still current and which have since been superseded.
Using the “steep learning curve” line to justify a bad attitude doesn’t wash under any circumstances, but the situation regarding the documentation lag makes having a go at new players for not getting it straight away even more out of order.

[thewood1]

So, again complaining about people complaining. I have been in half a dozen threads helping some people and haven't seen you there once. Take a look at the guy who started this all. He can't even figure out how to use function keys. He wouldn't even google an answer for himself without being told. He thinks this is some kind of giant help desk. Again where were you? Formulating some forum response at the bottom of an old thread? He still hasn't figured it out. Jump in there and help. Let's see if you can get through to him. I'll take you a little more seriously if you would actually do something instead of just whining about it.

And there aren't a ton of people helping out. There are maybe half a dozen who consistently try to effectively help. . And by helping, I don't mean accusing people of plagiarizing.