Unit recovery from disablements

[rustysi]

It also seems to recover exceedingly slowly.

Keep in mind that a disabled gun may be 'repaired' with parts, and as long as these are available it could be done rather quickly. A disabled infantry squad is a wounded soldier and they take longer to heal with a time frame that is not easily altered. It may also be an abstract in assimilating 'replacements' into the unit as opposed to waiting for the injured to recover. Its my experience that infantry devices are the last to recover, and it takes time. A heavily damaged infantry unit may be out of the line for months for recovery. Just look at the Marines IRL. Quite honestly this makes sense to me.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

Unless they are repaired at the same time as they are received from replacements, my experience with replacement devices is that they arrive repaired - not disabled.

Receipt of "replacement" devices can occur from several different pulses within the housekeeping phase at the end of the turn. The two biggest "replacement" streams are from upgrading devices and straight out replacement to bring the unit back up towards TOE.

Page 261 of the manual refers to receiving upgraded devices on the same ratio basis as the superseded devices. IOW if the LCU had 7 ready and 5 disabled obsolescent 18 pdr guns, upon upgrading to 25 pdr guns one would receive 7 ready and 5 disabled, a 1:1 ratio. However I believe that passage in the manual to have been altered after printing but before release of AE. In comments dated 16 and 18 Oct 2009, BigJ62 clearly stated that keeping tabs on these disabled obsolescent devices was problematical and thus AE returns all upgraded devices in a ready state irrespective of how many of the obsolescent devices were in a disabled state. Certainly my experience with regard to upgrades is in line with BigJ62's comments.

I don't have my housekeeping phase notes with me at the moment but my recollection is that AE follows the order listed in s.15.1 of the manual. The manual indicates that the relevant pulses in order are:

(1) expend supply points to maintain LCUs
(4) adjust LCU fatigue
(7) add replacements to LCUs
(9) perform LCU device upgrades

This order indicates the straight out replacements stream occurs after the recovery of disabled devices actions have occurred. My experience bears out this interpretation as I see newly arrived straight out replacement devices to be in a disabled state whereas upgraded devices received are always 100% in the ready state.

Alfred

[Ian R]

Alfred.

Is there a difference between not-squad devices - tanks, guns - where you get a new one out of the finite supply, on the one hand; and on the other, squad type devices, where, to summarise perhaps too briefly, what you in effect get is a squad upgrade to the new version, reflecting the issue of more automatic weapons, etc?.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Alfred.

Is there a difference between not-squad devices - tanks, guns - where you get a new one out of the finite supply, on the one hand; and on the other, squad type devices, where, to summarise perhaps too briefly, what you in effect get is a squad upgrade to the new version, reflecting the issue of more automatic weapons, etc?.

Sorry, I'm finding it difficult to understand your question.

If the question is "does the rate of recovery depend on the type of device", to the best of my knowledge the answer is no.

If the question is " does the readiness status of newly received upgraded devices depend on their type", the answer is no.

Alfred

[Ian R]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Alfred.

Is there a difference between not-squad devices - tanks, guns - where you get a new one out of the finite supply, on the one hand; and on the other, squad type devices, where, to summarise perhaps too briefly, what you in effect get is a squad upgrade to the new version, reflecting the issue of more automatic weapons, etc?.

Sorry, I'm finding it difficult to understand your question.

If the question is "does the rate of recovery depend on the type of device", to the best of my knowledge the answer is no.

If the question is " does the readiness status of newly received upgraded devices depend on their type", the answer is no.

Alfred

Thanks, you answered it.

What I was getting at was whether, if you get as an example a tank type upgrade- say M3 Lee to M4 Sherman - at a time when you had 17 disabled Lees and 34 not-disabled ones, do 17 of your brand new Shermans become disabled as a result?

The answer as I understand it is "yes".

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Thanks, you answered it.

What I was getting at was whether, if you get as an example a tank type upgrade- say M3 Lee to M4 Sherman - at a time when you had 17 disabled Lees and 34 not-disabled ones, do 17 of your brand new Shermans become disabled as a result?

The answer as I understand it is "yes".
[/quote]

That is what I thought you meant but I discarded it as I thought post #22 directly answered it after pointing out the inaccuracy in the manual, hence why I was puzzled and uncertain what exactly was the question. Obviously I wasn't clear enough in post #22.[:)]

If you have 17 disabled Lees and 34 ready Lees, upon upgrading you receive 51 ready Shermans.

To make it clearer I provide the thread with the comments (made in several posts) I alluded to from BigJ62 in post #22.

That is what I thought you meant but I discarded it as I thought post #22 directly answered it after pointing out the inaccuracy in the manual, hence why I was puzzled and uncertain what exactly was the question. Obviously I wasn't clear enough in post #22.[:)]

If you have 17 disabled Lees and 34 ready Lees, upon upgrading you receive 51 ready Shermans.

To make it clearer I provide the thread with the comments (made in several posts) I alluded to from BigJ62 in post #22.

tm.asp?m=2268110&mpage=1&key=

Alfred

Alfred

[Ian R]

If you have 17 disabled Lees and 34 ready Lees, upon upgrading you receive 51 ready Shermans.

Thank you, that makes perfectly good sense.

Obviously I wasn't clear enough in post #22

I am prepared to take the blame for not reading it properly.

I could, though, understand that if you are upgrading your US squad '43s to US squad '44s, you are issuing the same guys with a new mix of you-beaut upgraded weaponry. So if some of them were disabled by exhaustion/shell-shock/wound recovery/malaria/dysentery etc, at the moment of upgrade, they stay disabled.

Hence the other portion of my question, is there a difference between squad and non-squad devices in the treatment of this?

Just to be clear, by squad devices I mean the ones where the squads they replace are swapped back into the pool and get an instant upgrade so they contribute to a 'cascade' through your ground forces.

[Alfred]

The answer still remains the same; the upgraded squads are received in a ready status.[:)]
 
The point you make about exhaustion et al being reflected in receiving disabled squads was not lost by the devs.  The problem from the game engine POV is
 

• there is no tracking of disabled status - neither the cause of disablement nor the degree of the device itself (is the squad device 54 % disabled but the AFV device is 76% disabled) is tracked
• it would be somewhat arbitrary, for example would an AFV which has lost its tracks and hence is immobile but which can be used as a fixed pillbox and thus contribute to defense, be properly considered disabled or ready.  In AE the issue is sidestepped because it is a simple binary switch, a device is either ready or disabled

Read the BigJ62 posts in the thread I provided in post #26 to see the devs quandary regarding this issue.
 
Alfred

[Skyros]

Alfred thank God you are still around to provide this information and clarity.

Thank you.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Skyros

Alfred thank God you are still around to provide this information and clarity.

Thank you.

Very kind words, particularly considering they come from someone who was involved in the development of AE, a fact probably not noticed by most who post.

As to my presence on the forum I have actually cut it back considerably as a result of what gets posted. There are several people I will not bother to provide any advice. Many reasons for that but high on the list is the suspicion they are playing a pirated copy of the game. About 7 years ago there was a Dutchman who over a period of months persistently asked the most basic game mechanics questions, all of them clearly answered in the manual. It was only after several months that he admitted that he couldn't look up the manual for the simple reason that he had a pirated copy which lacked the manual. Currently there is at least one regular poster who displays the same profile as that Dutchman albeit his English is better. I will not condone aiding and abetting computer piracy.

Then there are others who are incapable of self determining the answer to a question like: "(a) + (b) = 4, where (a) has the value of 4 what is the value of (b)?". Or they might ask the forum something like "my air unit is assigned to 100% training, why did it not attack the spotted enemy carriers?, it must be a bug". I believe there is a South Park character whose catch phrase is "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people". It is a waste of my time to provide an answer in these circumstances.

One of the consequences of my limited forum presence is that I have "101 guides" which I won't bother posting. I have occasionally received PMs from individuals seeking clarification on areas where I have an unposted 101 guide. Depending on who PM'd me I have emailed them that guide.

Alfred

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

One of the consequences of my limited forum presence is that I have "101 guides" which I won't bother posting. I have occasionally received PMs from individuals seeking clarification on areas where I have an unposted 101 guide. Depending on who PM'd me I have emailed them that guide.

Alfred

You dog! Holding back! Well, one of the joys of this game is finding out something new the old fashioned way - observation, trial and error.[;)]

Of course, a fair bit of the time I think I rediscover things I previously knew and forgot...but the excitement it generates is just as good as discovering it for the first time, although to be honest sometimes it is simply a face-palm moment.[:D]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

ORIGINAL: Alfred

One of the consequences of my limited forum presence is that I have "101 guides" which I won't bother posting. I have occasionally received PMs from individuals seeking clarification on areas where I have an unposted 101 guide. Depending on who PM'd me I have emailed them that guide.

Alfred

You dog! Holding back! Well, one of the joys of this game is finding out something new the old fashioned way - observation, trial and error.[;)]

Of course, a fair bit of the time I think I rediscover things I previously knew and forgot...but the excitement it generates is just as good as discovering it for the first time, although to be honest sometimes it is simply a face-palm moment.[:D]

I think we can all identify with that last statement Lowpe!

[JoV]

Just by way of closure, I moved the 65th to Clark Field, and then shipped them back to Takao. They still refuse to recover, despite having the run of the place on Formosa (lots of supply, ground support etc).

I have long since decided that these guys will spend the rest of the war garrisoning some god forbidden south pacific island. They have nobody to blame but themselves [:-]

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think we can all identify with that last statement Lowpe!

[Lecivius]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I think we can all identify with that last statement Lowpe!

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: JoV

Just by way of closure, I moved the 65th to Clark Field, and then shipped them back to Takao. They still refuse to recover, despite having the run of the place on Formosa (lots of supply, ground support etc).

I have long since decided that these guys will spend the rest of the war garrisoning some god forbidden south pacific island. They have nobody to blame but themselves [:-]

I have had similar issues with trying to get a Marine Regiment (6th IIRC) to fill out, first at San Diego and then at San Francisco. Lots of supply, lots of devices in the pools, leader with Admin skills in the 60s. There is enough support at the base and West Coast Command is in range. There were other units also drawing replacements, but not Marine squads - just the one Marine Regiment. It would never draw more than one Marine squad at a time, but there were enough in the pool to fill out the unit.
I decided that either other units on the map drawing from the pool caused it to reach its limit for issue of Marine Squads on the turn or the index number of the Marine Regiment is higher than all the other units and the AI just never gets to it while doing all the other replacements. Other Marine Regiments that arrived at San Diego many weeks later filled out quickly.

[Yaab]

Thread resurrection.

65th Bde cannot undisable squads - 48th Div can undisable squads.

ORIGINAL: JoV

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Post screenshots of the two units.  Those screenshots are much more informative than a tracker screenshot.

Alfred

This is the 65th Bde. It's just reached Clark Field and will be set into rest mode



And the 48th ID, which has been in bombardment mode for about a week now.

I have had similar problems lately like the OP. Some units just won't undisable their squads no matter what you do (leaders, 20k supplies, rest, dividing to ABC, HQs with tons of free support, big base etc.) I have finally found the solution, and, well, I feel stupid.

The answer is in front of you. Just look at the above screenshot. It's all there, right under your very nose!

The only reason the 48th Div is undisabling is that it uses additional support from an HQ. Thus, its "Support required" number is shown in GREEN colour.

65th Bde cannot undisable because it uses its own organic support squads to undisable itself. Thus, its "Support required" is in WHITE. The unit does so because it has surplus support (240 support squads supporting 204 other devices).

Even if you put 65th Bde in an empty base with 20k supplies, and five HQs with 100 support squads each, the unit will NOT UNDISABLE, because the code will not assign any HQ to heal the 65th Bde.


It is a quirk of the code, and can sometimes happen when a unit is damaged in combat, and emerges from combat with more support squads active than non-support squads (65the Bde) or can be set so by a designer in a scenario (think 74th Corps in Changsha in scen 1 and 100). The problem is, the organic support squad are totally inefficient in undisabling devices from its own unit. Sometimes it is 1-3 devices per turn, and the next turn 1 device may get disabled. In case of 65th Bde, its organic support has yet to undisable 37 infantry sqauds, before support squads from HQ can help with undisabling the remaining 60 squads.

How can you heal the likes of 65th Bde.

1) park your unit somehwere hoping the organic support will some day undisable the unit completely

2) grow your unit, until the number of non-squad devices outruns unit's organic support, and the "support required" field will be displayed in RED, initiating unit's genuine request for support squads from an HQ

3) if the above is not feasible (since unit cannot take any new replacements as it already reached full TOE), accept that a part of the unit is disabled almost permanently, and use the unit in battle, hoping that the disabled squads will be killed in battle, making room for new replacements, which will outgrow the organic support numbers.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: Why the dev (BigJ62) is both right and wrong about undisablements when he says:

"1. friendly base with greater than 2x supply helps and having excess support at that base plus any corps HQ in range with a leader with high admin helps.
2. unit with 1x+ supply helps
3. rest mode really helps
4. unit with high exp helps
5. no enemy in hex helps
6. temperate hex really helps
None of these are manditory but they help.



A HQ cannot help if:

-the disabled unit uses its own organic support to heal disablements.

-the number of support squads in HQ is smaller then the number of support squad requested by a unit that does not use surplus organic support. If the unit requests 71 support squads, and the HQ brings 70 squads, the healing by HQ does not happen. It works the same way like LI/HI and res/fuel work - it is all or nothing.

EDIT TWO:How to test the whole premise:

Test 1:
-start scen 1 or 100 as Allies
-go to Changsha
-walk out the 10th Corps out of Changsha
-set 74th corps (WHITE-supported) to rest and test for five turns

Test 2
-start scen 1 or 100 as Allies
-go to Changsha
-walk out the 74th Corps out of Changsha
-set 10th Corps (GREEN-supported) to rest and test for five turns


Compare and laugh. Blame the manual, forum myths, whatever.

[GetAssista]

Yaab, very interesting. You are a constant source of new things to notice about the game, kudos and thanks!

A more rigorous testing is needed, and I have just the suitable tools (specific custom made scenario, where I tested recovery speeds). Will get to it soon and post here

Can green support be achieved by loading some of the unit support squads on ships? Or maybe the other way around. That mechanized support devices often tend to be left in port, even when TF screen promised adequate space for the load. Would look kinda stupid to leave "support cadres" behind in the name of faster recovery but if it works...

Also, if you load the unit on a lot of ships, loadouts are far from uniform, and you can group and take away ships with support squads.

[JoV]

Interesting [:)] Look forward to seeing what you are able to demonstrate.

As for my lazy bloody 65th, after a long convalescence at Takao they moped up some of the smaller island and were then shipped to Truk, where they rebounded relatively well. I then moved them all down to Milne Bay. I once read Milne Bay has the highest rate of malaria anywhere in the world. Seemed an appropriate location for them to think about their poor performance for the next few years.

[Yaab]

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

Yaab, very interesting. You are a constant source of new things to notice about the game, kudos and thanks!

A more rigorous testing is needed, and I have just the suitable tools (specific custom made scenario, where I tested recovery speeds). Will get to it soon and post here

Can green support be achieved by loading some of the unit support squads on ships? Or maybe the other way around. That mechanized support devices often tend to be left in port, even when TF screen promised adequate space for the load. Would look kinda stupid to leave "support cadres" behind in the name of faster recovery but if it works...

Also, if you load the unit on a lot of ships, loadouts are far from uniform, and you can group and take away ships with support squads.

I guess it could work, but I have never paid attention to device loading order. In one of my restarts, I tried to move a chunk of Pacfic Command HQ by a small xAP in Pearl Harbor. The HQ consists only of Naval Support and support squads. The only thing that got loaded on the xAP in Amphib mode were support squasds only. So yes, in theory your ship method could work, but others need to chime in and confirm the method's feasibility.