Soviet Intervention

[gus]

Hey Mike

Didn't mean to lump you in with the MacArthurphiles, it just appeared from your prior statements that you gave considerable credence to his promise to deliver the goods in PI. Good to know that we are on the same page on this one.

Originally posted by Mike Scholl
But I find most of your justifications pretty far-fetched. Just
where was this extra year's worth of oil going to come from?
And victory by the Germans in 1941 is pretty unrealistic. Maybe
forcing some kind of cease-fire by the end of 1942, based on a
combination of enlightened German Political Activity in the
areas overrun and Stalin's mis-givings over getting any help
from the West is an outside possibility---but a German outright
"win" in 1941?

Sure they are far fetched in hindsight but history is filled with examples of the implausible occurring and changing the world as we know it. We look at the campaign in the South Pacific which is modeled in UV as inevitable now because we have the luxury of hindsight. Prior to the outbreak of hostilities I know of no source (credible or not) that predicted the strategic significance of this area. How many people would have predicted the outbreak of World War I based on the assasination of Arch Duke Ferdinand? How many people would have predicted that Revolutionary France would have been saved and restored to greatness through the machinations of a junior artillery officer? How many people would have predicted that the English Raj would end because of a single man who refused to cooperate as expected?
This list is virtually endless and is one of the most fascinating areas of history for me personally. Tweaking the elements of these events to see what might have occurred has always been interesting to me as well.

Originally posted by Mike Scholl
Point is.., WHY BOTHER? If you have to batter historical reality
beyond recognition to make your case---why not just ignore it?
Just do your own scenario starting in December 1941 and SAY
that the Japanese were in better shape to participate. Call it
the "Pacific War in the Andromeda Galaxy". And it will be easier
to do since you only have to change the Japanese side.

Have you ever wondered what the world would look like today if Napoleon's empire had not collapsed or the Germans had won WWI or the Axis WW II? What if the Hitler was right and all you had to do with the USSR was to "... Kick the door in and the whole rotten structure will collapse"? Wargames provide us with the illusion to replay and reshape history but is it really history? Wargames batter reality by their very nature. As players we have to acccept some degree of abstraction so that we can model the given event. Take UV for example, does this game model reality? Of course not but nevertheless it is great fun to play. Does everyone play the historical sceanrios, of course not! Instead we play the scenarios (#17 and #19) that are the most ahistorical but represent an historical possibility and are more balanced games and give both sides the opportunity to play outside the standard historical context.

So I guess the answer to your question of "Why bother?" is that we have the capability to do so and it is fun.

Cheers

Gus

[Mike Scholl]

I'm all for looking at ways to explore the potential what-if's
of the situation. And I'd like to see a scenario that offered the
Japanese a better chance to fight. We simply differ in degrees
of what we're willing to consider "possible".

When I plugged a scenario for improving the Japanese situation in one of the other forums, I'd based my "assumptions"
on a few strong and far-sighted decisions being made in the mid
30's. One was a "Rationalization Program" for military equipment
between the Army and the Navy such as Albert Speer implimented
in Germany during 1942-43. Japanese Industry was quite inefficent..., and the Army and the Navy couldn't even agree on a common voltage for aircraft components. A good deal more could
have been achieved from the same resources with a rational approach. Another of my ideas was that the "Super-Battleship" proponants lost out to their more progressive and air-minded
brotheren. The Yamato's were enormously expensive in raw materials, design capability, and industrial capacity. Using that
effort to build a couple more fleet carriers with escorts and air
wings would provide much more "bang for the buck". Niether
of these ideas require more than the appearance of a few "right
men at the right time". Another possibility would be that the Japanese paid more attention to the German experiance in WW I
and built more, but smaller submarines (not as small as the German Type-VII's, but more like the US "Fleet Boats", rather
than the oversized I-Boats actually built.) Couple a forward
Submarine base in the Marshall Islands with an "unrestricted"
submarine warfare doctrine like the rest of the world adopted,
and the US has a BIG problem that it didn't have historicaqlly.

All of these are decisions the Japanese COULD have made.
Maybe they aren't the most likely, but they are certainly feasible.
And they don't require strange and highly unlikely happenings
anywhere else to change the Japanese situation for the better.
I guess I just don't like to reach as far into the "Twilight Zone"
as you seem willing to do.

Oh, and in answer to your question about people predicting
the outbreak of WW I over Franz Ferdinand's assassination---I believe it was Otto Bismarck who predicted that the next great
war would be started by "some damned foolish thing in the Balkins". Hang in there...

[gus]

Originally posted by Mike Scholl
We simply differ in degrees of what we're willing to consider "possible".

Hey Mike,

Agreed.

While I don't expect these variants to be shipped with the CD I am hoping that it will be possible to create them with the scenario editor and posted on a scenario depot somewhere like we can do for Combat Mission. Those who like the premise of the scenario will download it, those who don't won't. It leaves the decision of its acceptance to the individual rather than the mob. Democracy in action, everyone is happy!

BTW Bismark was not alone regarding the Balkans. Virtually all European leaders agreed that the nascent independence movements in the Balkans made it a political tinder box. A war of limited scope was expected as a consequence of this but the actual scope of WW I and how quickly it evolved from a localized conflict to a global conflagration surprised everyone involved.

Gus

[siRkid]

We, the testers, have forwarded several ideas on how to handle the Soviets and the Communist Chinese. Right now it looks like they might be options (Historical, Non-Historical) that is selected at game set-up. However, this can change because we are a long way form coding that part of the game.

Rick

[Mike Scholl]

Originally posted by Kid
We, the testers, have forwarded several ideas on how to handle the Soviets and the Communist Chinese. Right now it looks like they might be options (Historical, Non-Historical) that is selected at game set-up. However, this can change because we are a long way form coding that part of the game.

Rick

KID As you've had a chance to look at our ramblings, would
you mind sharing the amazement and some of the playtester's
thoughts?

[elcid]

The original terminus of the Alcan highway was NOME. It s purpose was to supply an offensive in RUSSIAN SIBERIA. In fact, a good deal of surveying was done for an airfield net, and the airfields were built, and used as the MAIN FERRY ROUTE of aircraft from the USA to Russia during the war. It was intended to follow the highway with a railroad. The Alcan was built BEFORE the war began (from the US point of view) in only six months! Across formidable terrain. The idea was nixed by Stalin. But it was not nixed instantly, and it might not have been. Japan is a good deal less distant from the north than from the east, and those who argue (Dunnigan does ) that the idea was impossible on weather grounds are not Alaskans (as I am) or Siberians - certainly the know how existed. The idea was to ship from Nome to the Soviet Far East, across the Bering Sea, and then to build a new road and eventually railroad line down towards the Amur Province (the area near Vladivostok). One of the surveyers for all this was Reeve, of Reeve Air Aleutian fame. And the work on the Russian side could build on studies going back to the early part of the century, as the Trans-Siberian was supposed to terminate in New York City -and planned to transit that area!!! [Construction of that part began in the late Soviet period, finally].

[siRkid]

Originally posted by Mike Scholl
KID As you've had a chance to look at our ramblings, would
you mind sharing the amazement and some of the playtester's
thoughts?

I've been out of town for a week. Give me a chance to get caught up and I'll get back to your question.

Rick