russian intervention

[RogerJNeilson]

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

a) I flew a Japanese recon aircraft over a Soviet base. Activation was instant at the end of the turn.

Oh my gawd, this is the most hilarious thing that I have read.
I am 99% sure that you DID NOT want to activate sovs in your game and that it was a "game engine accident".

Did it ruin your game?
Did you agree to go back a turn as this is a bit silly.

Fat lackey in soviet uniform: "Vozhd! A small Japanese airplane has overflown one of our bases!"

Stalin: "Which one?"

FL: "It wasn't in the report, it is a really small, unimportant one on the Machukuo border."

Stalin: "What plane was it?".

FL: "It was a Babs, a really old, useless, unarmed design."

Stalin: "That's it, alert the Far Eastern Front, we are going to attack Japan!".

FL: "Vvvvvvvvoooozhd..... The Germans are next to Moscow....".

Stalin picks up the phone: "Hello! Alert the Far Eastern Front! I want an all out offensive tomorrow! Yes, you have heard me right! Oh, and also, send an NKVD squad to my office, because the party has decided to arrest the.... what's your name?"/

FL: "MMM...mmm....mmmmmyyyy... nnnnnaa...nnnnaaame is Stieeeeeeppppppppppaaaaaaa...nnnnn...Daaaaaviddddoooo...".

Stalin: "Right, the party has decided to arrest the fat one! You know the one, the idiot! Right, right... oh, and do not forget - all out offensive by everything we have on Japanese border!".

Yes I agree but just for balance, as Allies I have taken almost all significant bases in China and have invaded both Manchukuo (currently cleaning it up) and half of Korea and Uncle Joe is quite content to see his postwar geopolitical influence in Asia trashed in Feb 1945 by this whilst his forces just sit in their bases doing nothing.

The game mechanism is a very blunt one.....

Roger

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Timotheus

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

a) I flew a Japanese recon aircraft over a Soviet base. Activation was instant at the end of the turn.

Oh my gawd, this is the most hilarious thing that I have read.
I am 99% sure that you DID NOT want to activate sovs in your game and that it was a "game engine accident".

Did it ruin your game?
Did you agree to go back a turn as this is a bit silly.

Fat lackey in soviet uniform: "Vozhd! A small Japanese airplane has overflown one of our bases!"

Stalin: "Which one?"

FL: "It wasn't in the report, it is a really small, unimportant one on the Machukuo border."

Stalin: "What plane was it?".

FL: "It was a Babs, a really old, useless, unarmed design."

Stalin: "That's it, alert the Far Eastern Front, we are going to attack Japan!".

FL: "Vvvvvvvvoooozhd..... The Germans are next to Moscow....".

Stalin picks up the phone: "Hello! Alert the Far Eastern Front! I want an all out offensive tomorrow! Yes, you have heard me right! Oh, and also, send an NKVD squad to my office, because the party has decided to arrest the.... what's your name?"/

FL: "MMM...mmm....mmmmmyyyy... nnnnnaa...nnnnaaame is Stieeeeeeppppppppppaaaaaaa...nnnnn...Daaaaaviddddoooo...".

Stalin: "Right, the party has decided to arrest the fat one! You know the one, the idiot! Right, right... oh, and do not forget - all out offensive by everything we have on Japanese border!".

You went on a long and needless rant. I did it on purpose because I wanted to find out what it was like to play with the Soviets active, to learn the strengths and problems that come with that territory and its forces. It has been fun and instructive, and hard on the Japanese.

[Lowpe]

ORIGINAL: Alfred
What is clear from the exemplars is that if Japan is to attack the USSR it

(a) must be done ASAP (preferably 7 or 8 December 1941 if possible)
(b) be part of a coherent opening strategy with the necessary assets in position on day 1 of the attack

Lowpe's current AAR is a very good demonstration of the disasters that await Japan upon a late and unprepared attack.

Even a well prepared and timely Japanese attack will show that the raw materials and industrial booty which can be gained are not an adequate substitute for the goodies available in the SRA. Soviet goodies, particularly the oil on Sakhalin Island, are a nice additional bonus but the SRA goodies must be captured.

Alfred

I am not sure about scenario 2, but in a Scenario 1 style game (a) is wrong if taken literally. Japan definitely doesn't want to attack Soviets of Dec 7 or 8 1941.

Japan's infrastructure, especially runways, is sadly lacking to launch offensive operations against the Bear.

Japan's Aviation Support is also lacking too. Japanese fighter production and strength are nowhere near what Japan needs in December of 1941.

Japan's land troops are out of position and lacking the Type 1 medium tank.

Japan's navy is not in position to bottle up the Soviets.

Sakhalin is extremely vulnerable. Hokkaido to a lesser degree.

Soviets start with enough paratroops and transports to do real damage.

The conquest of the Chinese north.

An attack on Dec 7 or 8 will yield the single greatest asset of any Japanese/Soviet aggression prior to 1945...that is the surprise attack cutting the supply rail line to Port Arthur combined with devastating air attack on the Soviet Air Force on the first day of the war.

However, if (a) means the decision to strike the Soviets early is made on Dec 7 then that I can whole heartily agree with.[;)] This allows the proper disposition of ground strike forces, the buildup of forward air bases, the defense of Sakhalin, the expansion of Japanese fighter production an a hundred an one other details.

[JeffroK]

I was playing the AI in Andy's Ironman III very nasty scenario.

By 1943 I was keeping my head above water but was sick of clearing atolls against heavily armed Division sized forces. This and the arrival of aircraft types 12-24 mths early was wearing me out.

So I marched an IJA Recce Bn into Manchuria and woke up the Bear.

>>>> It happens without any fanfare, how about a pretty picture and trumpets blaring >>>>

The biggest advantage was the fact the japanese was out of position, the Red Army doesnt move fast (mostly) and its AirForce totally obsolete. I used the Navy offensivly but ran out of shipping larger than DD in a few turns.
The most useful units were the Soviet Armoured Brigades and the few Motor Divisions, the Gobi Desert was cleared and Beijing approached. This seemed to annoy the AI who smashed 1 of my Bdes with a force of 6-7 Divisions.

I had fun in a rarely travelled region using a new mix of forces, all AI players (especilly the JFB who smash the Allies)should give it a try.

[Macclan5]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The real reason why any Allied emergency reinforcement package exists in AE is to rein in Japanese players who avail themselves of game mechanics to undertake historically implausible actions. The packages allow for Japanese players to undertake extreme what ifs but present them with a commensurate cost which the game mechanics otherwise do not impose. I would speculate that the classical WITP designers and subsequently the AE devs were of the view that in the event of an implausible unhistorical attack on the USSR, the existing game mechanics already impose a commensurate cost without the need for creating a Soviet emergency reinforcement package. Combined with the difficulties they would need to address in creating such a package, I can easily see why the coding and database effort to do one was not considered to be warranted.

Alfred

Adding to an old thread out of interest in the topic

A very and interesting detailed response. I would add the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Route

Little known but I have read of it in a number of places. The Pacific Route was used by "Soviet Flagged" American ships to deliver lend lease supplies to Vlad... due to the non aggression treaty. The wiki article quotes some 400,000 rail carloads full of supply although is not very specific of the time period. Further it was to be 'non war material' but includes locomotives and other such industrial goods.

I am unsure if this would have had a dramatic impact on Soviet fortunes. I suppose the goods could have eventually re-routed via Tehran or the North Sea. It would have been delayed at the minimum.

Never the less here exists the argument that west coast supply to the Soviets suddenly ceasing would in fact cripple the Soviet ability to 'quickly responsd with emergency re-inforcements given the German Army at its doorstep.

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: Macclan5

ORIGINAL: Alfred

The real reason why any Allied emergency reinforcement package exists in AE is to rein in Japanese players who avail themselves of game mechanics to undertake historically implausible actions. The packages allow for Japanese players to undertake extreme what ifs but present them with a commensurate cost which the game mechanics otherwise do not impose. I would speculate that the classical WITP designers and subsequently the AE devs were of the view that in the event of an implausible unhistorical attack on the USSR, the existing game mechanics already impose a commensurate cost without the need for creating a Soviet emergency reinforcement package. Combined with the difficulties they would need to address in creating such a package, I can easily see why the coding and database effort to do one was not considered to be warranted.

Alfred

Adding to an old thread out of interest in the topic

A very and interesting detailed response. I would add the following:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Route

Little known but I have read of it in a number of places. The Pacific Route was used by "Soviet Flagged" American ships to deliver lend lease supplies to Vlad... due to the non aggression treaty. The wiki article quotes some 400,000 rail carloads full of supply although is not very specific of the time period. Further it was to be 'non war material' but includes locomotives and other such industrial goods.

I am unsure if this would have had a dramatic impact on Soviet fortunes. I suppose the goods could have eventually re-routed via Tehran or the North Sea. It would have been delayed at the minimum.

Never the less here exists the argument that west coast supply to the Soviets suddenly ceasing would in fact cripple the Soviet ability to 'quickly responsd with emergency re-inforcements given the German Army at its doorstep.

Yes the Russians were hard pressed, and so are the in-game Japanese trying to expand their perimeter and make it too costly to retake. As Alfred pointed out, there is an opportunity cost to putting significant IJN/IJA forces to work on Russia: leaving weak spots on the rest of the perimeter. All in all it makes for a fun "what if ..." to play out.