Japanese '43 infantry squads.

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Alfred
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: Dili

I think that would be a bad idea since suddenly an unit just disappearing from front-line is not okay. It is also not likely that Japanese just changed their squads in one go, certainly units continued with them for while.
If the units loose squads in combat then Japanese player is forced to upgrade the TOE to have new squads. It seems the less worse option.

Only a problem for ongoing games; an issue I flagged in my post. Otherwise not a problem as has been consistently demonstrated by Allied players who have many combat LCUs withdraw which do not even return unlike the suggested "fix" where the Japanese LCUs would return.

The actual fix adopted works but is inelegant. Its main benefit being the minimum amount of dev work involved. The fix creates other issues which whilst not game stoppers do lead to player misunderstandings. The greatest misunderstanding being that the 1943 upgrade = a downgrade. Notwithstanding what some say, it isn't.

What AE is doing is replicating the historical Japanese lightening of their reinforced units. Doing so via a change of TOE in AE was a possibility but it in turn leads to other problems, chief amongst them being shortage of suitable location spots for TOE upgrades and opportunities. There is a reason why Japanese TOE upgrades do not approach the frequency of Allied TOE upgrades.

The other main issue with doing it via TOE upgrade is that the historical lightening was not done, in AE terms, at the TOE level but at the squad AE abstraction level. There is significant AV reductions which would need to be done (plus actual worloak) if this route had been adoptedImplement the change via TOE and the devs would have been criticised by the internet knowledge dependent fanbois.

Alfred

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rustysi
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by rustysi »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: rustysi

tm.asp?m=2700375&mpage=1&key=IJA%2Cinfantry#

Alfred is this the thread?

Yes.

That is by far the best single source thread on the subject available on the public forum. Digging up the reference made in post #54 leads to even more specific details but those are not generally available. What was posted publicly is more than adequate to explain the devs treatment of the subject as being correct.

Alfred

OK, will read it now, didn't have time yesterday. Once again thanks very much Alfred.
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Dili
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by Dili »

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Dili

I think that would be a bad idea since suddenly an unit just disappearing from front-line is not okay. It is also not likely that Japanese just changed their squads in one go, certainly units continued with them for while.
If the units loose squads in combat then Japanese player is forced to upgrade the TOE to have new squads. It seems the less worse option.

Only a problem for ongoing games; an issue I flagged in my post. Otherwise not a problem as has been consistently demonstrated by Allied players who have many combat LCUs withdraw which do not even return unlike the suggested "fix" where the Japanese LCUs would return.

The actual fix adopted works but is inelegant. Its main benefit being the minimum amount of dev work involved. The fix creates other issues which whilst not game stoppers do lead to player misunderstandings. The greatest misunderstanding being that the 1943 upgrade = a downgrade. Notwithstanding what some say, it isn't.

What AE is doing is replicating the historical Japanese lightening of their reinforced units. Doing so via a change of TOE in AE was a possibility but it in turn leads to other problems, chief amongst them being shortage of suitable location spots for TOE upgrades and opportunities. There is a reason why Japanese TOE upgrades do not approach the frequency of Allied TOE upgrades.

The other main issue with doing it via TOE upgrade is that the historical lightening was not done, in AE terms, at the TOE level but at the squad AE abstraction level. There is significant AV reductions which would need to be done (plus actual worloak) if this route had been adoptedImplement the change via TOE and the devs would have been criticised by the internet knowledge dependent fanbois.

Alfred


An Allied unit retiring from scenario is an hard cut, it really got out from scenario so that is not a correct comparison. How the Japanese unit continue with former aprox. values of moral, experience, HQ etc would have implied a link in the code.
Alfred
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by Alfred »

How is that different for the Allied player.  The withdrawal mechanism is the same for both sides.  If the Allied player is using on the frontline a LCU which is scheduled to withdraw, it simply vanishes on the withdrawal date leaving a hole in the frontline.  An Allied player has to plan appropriately and so would a Japanese player.
 
Returning units never return to the frontline.  Here the Japanese would have the benefit of actually getting an entire replacement unit which the Allies don't.
 
JFBs just have to accept either the adopted dev solution of device #709 upgrading to device #710 (with no TOE upgrade) or something along the lines I posted.  Both still permit Japan a slightly unhistorical benefit.  To complain is to be greedy and intellectually dishonest, demanding on the one hand a strict adherence to historical capabilities for the Allied player but even more playing loosely with historical capabilities for Japan than already exist in the game.
 
Alfred
Dili
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by Dili »

The difference is that the Allied unit does not come back. The Japanese units did not went back to Japan to restructure they remained in their theaters.

I have no problems with what happen as it is.
While production can be way a-historical - any of the mods calculated how many squads Japan could deploy IRL ? - it is the reduction in Japanese squad that makes possible to continue to output squads supposedly in even more quantity if supply and manpower do not degrade.
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rustysi
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by rustysi »

OK, so I've read what I feel I need to read. Not every post of the 2011 thread as TBH there's far more minutia in there than I care to get into. I accept the Dev's decisions for what they have done and what they had to do, and why they made the decisions they made.

So I have my original question, which I haven't actually stated as yet. Are these 'upgraded' units in the Japanese OOB actually stronger, weaker, or the same? IOW what is their relative combat strength when compared to one another, before and after 'upgrade'?
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
Alfred
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by Alfred »

ORIGINAL: rustysi

OK, so I've read what I feel I need to read. Not every post of the 2011 thread as TBH there's far more minutia in there than I care to get into. I accept the Dev's decisions for what they have done and what they had to do, and why they made the decisions they made.

So I have my original question, which I haven't actually stated as yet. Are these 'upgraded' units in the Japanese OOB actually stronger, weaker, or the same? IOW what is their relative combat strength when compared to one another, before and after 'upgrade'?

The question is not really relevant.

If you don't upgrade the few 1941 reinforced units will weaken substantially commencing January 1943 as there will be no infantry replacements at all. The price for getting the later war reinforcing LCUs is the loss of device #709

Alfred
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Lokasenna
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by Lokasenna »

To add clarity... sure, you could refuse to have your units with those stronger squads upgrade (meaning they wouldn't get any upgraded devices). You would still be subject to needing replacements, so once the unit took any losses in terms of destroyed squads you would be unable to rebuild their combat strength. And you couldn't upgrade the TOE of the unit to take advantage of stronger/upgraded non-squad devices without also upgrading the TOE to include the slightly weaker squad device.

You could also place a "stockpile" hold on the later version of the squad device to prevent the unit from upgrading to those squads, but it would also prevent any and all units that you have on-map who need replacements of that squad from taking any of them as replacements.

In short, it's really best to just deal with the slight downgrade in the long run. Maybe when the device first turns up it's something that you can play around with at the margins, but you can't do it completely and you can't do it forever without sacrificing a much larger amount of capability elsewhere.
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rustysi
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RE: Japanese '43 infantry squads.

Post by rustysi »

In short, it's really best to just deal with the slight downgrade in the long run.

Which is as I thought.

I get all the rest, no replacements, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Thanks for all the responses, and clarifications.
It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
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