OT: Bigger Than The Nimitz Class?

[mind_messing]

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...

[RangerJoe]

We just know how well they burn . . .

edited for spelling. [:@]

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...

I'm not being dismissive, I see the things China is doing/attempting with great misgivings. Just don't think see could become a global CV power overnight. Its not an easy task to build/field such forces, as we know from playing this game.[:D]

Not only is China building military muscle, she's involved in a great many other things that could lead to a greater and easier domination of territory in her backyard. Infrastructure projects, like road building into remote regions, and an 'inland' port are just a couple. On the surface these are to open trade... Where it could lead from there....[:(]

[BBfanboy]

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...

I'm not being dismissive, I see the things China is doing/attempting with great misgivings. Just don't think see could become a global CV power overnight. Its not an easy task to build/field such forces, as we know from playing this game.[:D]

Not only is China building military muscle, she's involved in a great many other things that could lead to a greater and easier domination of territory in her backyard. Infrastructure projects, like road building into remote regions, and an 'inland' port are just a couple. On the surface these are to open trade... Where it could lead from there....[:(]

I looks to me that they want to get all the nations around them hooked on easy trade with them to create a sort of dependency. Then it will be easy to pressure them on the geopolitical stuff. Look how all the Airlines have caved in on use of the word Formosa, because China does not recognize it. Just one more tiny step toward isolating those proud people.

[RangerJoe]

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...



I'm not being dismissive, I see the things China is doing/attempting with great misgivings. Just don't think see could become a global CV power overnight. Its not an easy task to build/field such forces, as we know from playing this game.

Not only is China building military muscle, she's involved in a great many other things that could lead to a greater and easier domination of territory in her backyard. Infrastructure projects, like road building into remote regions, and an 'inland' port are just a couple. On the surface these are to open trade... Where it could lead from there....


I looks to me that they want to get all the nations around them hooked on easy trade with them to create a sort of dependency. Then it will be easy to pressure them on the geopolitical stuff. Look how all the Airlines have caved in on use of the word Formosa, because China does not recognize it. Just one more tiny step toward isolating those proud people.

They did not like it when the United Kingdom had their opium trade with the Chinese people and I am sure that other countries had a similar hook . . .

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...

No irony and maybe they do more in the future. But right now I doubt they have the ability to throw even one ID onto another continent and support it. That makes them a regional power.

I've said it before: Ships only exist to affect operations ashore. A giant carrier? That's nice. But for what?

[Uncivil Engineer]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...

No irony and maybe they do more in the future. But right now I doubt they have the ability to throw even one ID onto another continent and support it. That makes them a regional power.

I've said it before: Ships only exist to affect operations ashore. A giant carrier? That's nice. But for what?

Intimidation.

[CaptBeefheart]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

No one expects the Korean economy to top the US! [;)]

I'm talking growth, as in GDP growth rate, not GDP. The Korean economy used to be like China's with 7-10% growth per year. Eventually it dropped to 5% and this year maybe 2%.

Cheers,
CB

[RangerJoe]

I've said it before: Ships only exist to affect operations ashore. A giant carrier? That's nice. But for what?

A big troop ship like the US Navy did in 1945, but only after Japan surrendered.

I'm talking growth, as in GDP growth rate, not GDP. The Korean economy used to be like China's with 7-10% growth per year. Eventually it dropped to 5% and this year maybe 2%.

The bigger the economy gets, the harder it is to keep that high growth rate up. The easy things have been done then it gets harder and more expensive.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Uncivil Engineer

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...

No irony and maybe they do more in the future. But right now I doubt they have the ability to throw even one ID onto another continent and support it. That makes them a regional power.

I've said it before: Ships only exist to affect operations ashore. A giant carrier? That's nice. But for what?

Intimidation.

If they want to intimidate they should build credible SSNs. A CV is only intimidating if you have the rest of the packages to go with it.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I've said it before: Ships only exist to affect operations ashore. A giant carrier? That's nice. But for what?

A big troop ship like the US Navy did in 1945, but only after Japan surrendered.

Except for using submarines, there is no more expensive way to move troops than by CV. Over any sort of distance they lack potable water capabilities to berth significant troop numbers as well.

[RangerJoe]

Maybe they only want to cross a little straight and want a large open space for helicopters?

Unless they have the support ships for that CV, it won't be effective long away from home. But it might become a home for fishes if any shooting starts . . .

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Maybe they only want to cross a little straight and want a large open space for helicopters?

Unless they have the support ships for that CV, it won't be effective long away from home. But it might become a home for fishes if any shooting starts . . .

Right. That returns to my point that they seek to be a regional naval power. Although a CV is way overkill for a helo hauler.

As soon as you have a CV or CVN you are into 3D threat environments. Air and surface defense is trivial compared to developing ASW that can counter modern SSNs. And SSNs hunt CVs for breakfast. So having a CV at all commits you to a massive naval budget, building program, as well as all the infrastructure that entails. And decades of trying to get good at 3D defense.

[RangerJoe]

And their economy is slowing down so maybe this is a way to boost it. Maybe they have figured that they have stolen enough technology so now they have to build some new toys.

But this will be a way for them to learn and they can use it to lean on countries that they want to. If they can get a good first strike in on someplace that they otherwise can't or threaten to do so, then that becomes a tool of diplomacy as well.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

And their economy is slowing down so maybe this is a way to boost it. Maybe they have figured that they have stolen enough technology so now they have to build some new toys.

But this will be a way for them to learn and they can use it to lean on countries that they want to. If they can get a good first strike in on someplace that they otherwise can't or threaten to do so, then that becomes a tool of diplomacy as well.

Who exactly? An airstrike on a peaceful regional power like Indonesia would only make China an international pariah and lead to increased economic isolation. Picking on one state also makes the other regional states more likely to band together in a defensive alliance.

Building warships is a poor use of funds that could go to infrastructure instead, those benefits to spread through the civilian economy. China has vast needs for primary infrastructure, especially in rural areas. They don't need to sink billions into CVs to juice their GDP.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: rustysi

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...

I'm not being dismissive, I see the things China is doing/attempting with great misgivings. Just don't think see could become a global CV power overnight. Its not an easy task to build/field such forces, as we know from playing this game.[:D]

Not only is China building military muscle, she's involved in a great many other things that could lead to a greater and easier domination of territory in her backyard. Infrastructure projects, like road building into remote regions, and an 'inland' port are just a couple. On the surface these are to open trade... Where it could lead from there....[:(]

I looks to me that they want to get all the nations around them hooked on easy trade with them to create a sort of dependency. Then it will be easy to pressure them on the geopolitical stuff. Look how all the Airlines have caved in on use of the word Formosa, because China does not recognize it. Just one more tiny step toward isolating those proud people.

Yeah. Its things like this that make me nervous when we do things like unilaterally dropping out of a Pacific trade agreement, especially when it hasn't even been signed yet. Nations like New Zealand and Australia started talking with China about some sort of agreement. Not a scenario I would encourage.

Edit:Not that it helped that we were excluding China from our agreement. Its always better in my view that we at least attempt to find common ground, without giving or taking too much.

[rustysi]

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

I hope the irony of our American forumites being dismissive of the military capabilities of an Asian nation is not lost on anyone given the fact that we all play WitP...



I'm not being dismissive, I see the things China is doing/attempting with great misgivings. Just don't think see could become a global CV power overnight. Its not an easy task to build/field such forces, as we know from playing this game.

Not only is China building military muscle, she's involved in a great many other things that could lead to a greater and easier domination of territory in her backyard. Infrastructure projects, like road building into remote regions, and an 'inland' port are just a couple. On the surface these are to open trade... Where it could lead from there....


I looks to me that they want to get all the nations around them hooked on easy trade with them to create a sort of dependency. Then it will be easy to pressure them on the geopolitical stuff. Look how all the Airlines have caved in on use of the word Formosa, because China does not recognize it. Just one more tiny step toward isolating those proud people.

They did not like it when the United Kingdom had their opium trade with the Chinese people and I am sure that other countries had a similar hook . . .

I get things like that and I know the west wanted a weak and dependent China. As usual its not the case, but at some point we need to learn from the past and not end up in the same situations that result in large catastrophes.

[RangerJoe]

The national government is NOT going to bail out the local governments which have overspent.

Sometimes the threat alone is enough, especially against a dictator. China is gaining influence in Africa, how many US fleet units are protecting Africa? The current government in the Philippines does not appear to want to have close ties with the United States. Their choice but how much of a commitment will the US have in a dispute over the Spratley Islands if small-scale shooting were to start?

[Anachro]

ORIGINAL: rustysi
I get things like that and I know the west wanted a weak and dependent China. As usual its not the case, but at some point we need to learn from the past and not end up in the same situations that result in large catastrophes.

Lots of Chinese producers are still very dependent on western technology and will remain so for awhile. This is part of the reason behind China's push to become a tech leader, especially in strategic industries like semiconductors. It's also why lots of Western countries and Japan have export restrictions on such technologies. In the present trade war, China is in a much weaker position vis a vis the US primarily due to the large disparity in trade flows and the greater leverage its gives the USA via tariffs. The Chinese market is already beginning to seriously feel the effects.

ORIGINAL: Bulllwinkle58
Building warships is a poor use of funds that could go to infrastructure instead, those benefits to spread through the civilian economy. China has vast needs for primary infrastructure, especially in rural areas. They don't need to sink billions into CVs to juice their GDP.

Logic and economics are not the only things that dictate national decisions. Indeed, throughout history there are many events and developments that have taken place due to other, sometimes illogical factors. Nationalism, humiliation, prestige, etc. Many made the argument prior to World War I that a great war couldn't happen because global trade had made countries too dependent on each other and war too costly. Then it happened.

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Yeah. Its things like this that make me nervous when we do things like unilaterally dropping out of a Pacific trade agreement, especially when it hasn't even been signed yet. Nations like New Zealand and Australia started talking with China about some sort of agreement. Not a scenario I would encourage.

Free trade is a great thing theoretically and even in practice if its truly done so. Unfortunately, almost all nations engage in some form of protectionism, either through formal or informal means of mercantilism. Europe is not an exception; Japan and China are also heavily protectionist. It would be great if we could get true free trade agreements with other nations, but that has never been the case. Europe refuses to open up its agricultural industry as part of any free trade deal, Japan as well, Germany has auto tariffs on US cars, etc. the list goes on.

But those issues are minor relative to the malpractices of China. It would be much more in the interest of the U.S. to keep the EU and other Asian nations close through trade agreements as you say, however bad, and to work together to force China to change its trade practices. Maybe that will happen with the recent US-EU partial rapprochement.

Regarding Australia and NZ, I'm not up-to-date and perhaps some forumite from there can inform us. Last I checked, there was also a lot of discomfort with Chinese influence, such as Chinese investors and local property markets with pushback building. Australia has also made investments in its military. I don't think they seriously entertain the idea of moving closer to China.

[rustysi]

Australia has also made investments in its military. I don't think they seriously entertain the idea of moving closer to China.

Not saying that they were and it could've just been a method of getting us to think twice. They've been one of our staunchest allies, at least since WWII, and I for one would hate to see that relationship eroded.