Submarine warfare in WIF CE

[brian brian]

I believe the timing of setting up RES units is what changes in CE, more so than the force pools, though those do change here and there too. Check the Reserves rule carefully.

[Joseignacio]

Yes, there are changes in the deployment but I believe this is not the issue. Now I remember which was the problem with the DK reserve, GE declares war, invades and takes Copenhagen before the Danish impulse so that militia never arrives because Copenhagen is taken before the Allied impulse. I guess this needs to be changed in the rules or the Copenhaguen Militia&Reserve is worth for nothing (if it is a reserve as I believe now).

19.4 Minor country units
19.4.1. Setting up

When a minor country not currently aligned to any major power
aligns with you, set up its initial units immediately. You must set up
in hexes controlled by that minor. At least half a minor country’s
initial units must set up in its home country.

Set up each of the minor’s land and aircraft units (PiF option 4: including
any Planes in Flames units) that has an earlier year on its back. If it has the
current year on its back put it (PiF option 46: and its pilot) on the production
circle to arrive as a reinforcement next turn. For setting up reserves see 9.7.

9.7 Calling out the reserves

Each major power and many minor countries have reserve units that
may now be called out provided they are at war with a major power.
During your impulse you may call out reserves of such major powers
and minor countries you control that have ‘Res’ on the back of their
counter. If a reserve unit has a particular major power named on its
back, you may only call it out while you are at war with that major
power.

Example: It’s Anna’s impulse. She may now call out her Moscow
MIL provided the USSR and Germany (‘Ge’) are at war.

You don’t have to call out all eligible reserves at your first
opportunity. Any you don’t call out are available while you are at war
with a major power.

When you call out your reserves put your eligible reserve (and any MIL,
see 13.7.7) units that have previously been removed from the game back
into your force pools. Then move your eligible reserve units (and any MIL
there) from the reserve pool to the map (DiF option 52: except Guards
Banner units, see 22.4). in the same manner as reinforcements (see 4.2)
except that they are set up face-down. From now on treat these reserves just
like any other units.

I can see it's a 2-2 militia in the #24 countersheet but I cannot see it's back online, to see whether it's a RES as well.

[gw15]

Continuing with the ineffectiveness of subs in Raw7.
In my other netplay game with Steve. He moved 14(?) subs out of Brest because I was going to overrun them and attacked my convoys. He rolled six 1's in a row on searches while I rolled from 5's to 10's. Bad impulse for the Allies.
Since it is 1943 I did have ASW and took some of them out.
Anyway, my recent experience is the subs can be effective if one gets lucky like winning the lottery.
Subs should really be used as a threat to keep the Allies "honest" with their naval moves, to intercept lone targets of opportunity as they move through the sea zones, intercept aborts, and to use them with bad weather on the first impulse if the Axis move first. Don't use them like surface ships.
I find the sub warfare in MWIF (Raw7) exciting and depressing depending on which side you play. They only cost 2 BP.

[Joseignacio]

Well, the usual in case there is a strong presence of subs in one or two seas and you cannot defend them adequately for some reason or the number of subs is THAT huge, is to retreat the remaining conv at the first possibility and reroute them through other areas.

After the earlier turns the CW player should have enough convoys in reserve (originally from allied countries that became british) that this should not be a problem.

Anyway if luck is that bad you are going to have a bad time...

[etsadler]

So I think there are at least two different questions here:

1) WiF sub combat compared to historical success
2) Is WiF sub combat "cost effective"

To answer Question 1 I looked at the historical record. Using fairly round numbers U-boats sunk the following tonnage:

1940 2.2 million, highest 2 month turn total 650 thousand.
1941 2.2 million, highest turn 630 thousand.
1942 6.3 million, highest turn 1.3 million.
1943 2.6 million, highest turn 950 thousand.

The Commonwealth started the war with, based on my quick research, some 34 million tons of merchant shipping. In the new CE they start with 82 CPs, making each CP worth 414 thousand tons of shipping. Using 400 thousand as a rounded number, German subs need to sink the following number of CPs to meet history (rounding down due to my earlier rounding down):

1940 5CP
1941 5CP
1942 15CP
1943 6CP

As in CE convoys are sunk in 3s, to be historical Germany needs to get 2 "X" results in 6 turns in 1940, 1941, and 1943, and 5 in 6 turns in 1942.

U-boat losses were:

1940 24
1941 35
1942 87
1943 244

Based on earlier discussion that would be about 1, 1-2, 3-4, and 8-10 WiF sub units.

Based on my personal experience I feel Germany sinks st least the historical amount of shipping, and probably looses a few more subs in 1940, 41 and 42, and a few less in 1943.

To Question 2, is it worth it? Well, historically this effort did not bring the British to their knees. Numbers I have read indicate that GB military output was pretty steady through the war. Food and fuel were sometime very tight, but war materiel production didn't seem to suffer. Now I don't know if Harry designed the game to imply that GB's actual wartime production is "Full in game production" of 22 factories, or if his idea was that GB would always be a bit short, so historical production was the equivalent of 20, or 18 GB factories. But it does seem evident that the German player will have to go beyond sinking ~30 CPs to seriously weaken the Commonwealth war effort.

To Jose's point, early there are minor country CPs to take the place of any sunk CPs. But add in all the losses, and the need to convoy lent US resources and BPs to both GB and SU, and pretty soon GB will need to build CPs. How many is enough? I don't know. What does the group think?

[Joseignacio]

I like games to be realistic. We are playing a "simulation " of the WWII, no a fantasy game, yes.

That said, the game is a What-if. It allows the Japanese taking of Australia or the USA liberation of Poland, so no need to sink exacly the same number of convoys and produce or lose the same amount of subs.

But what is more important for me is that the game is playable, that it's features make sense. Having the subs almost without a meaning from 1941 simply makes you not build most of them, and use the existing ones only to interdict. For me this is a lack in the game,and of course in the game balance which is a basic.

To Jose's point, early there are minor country CPs to take the place of any sunk CPs. But add in all the losses, and the need to convoy lent US resources and BPs to both GB and SU, and pretty soon GB will need to build CPs. How many is enough? I don't know. What does the group think?

Losses. As i mentioned earlier, if the UK player is witty in allocating the Danish, Netherlands, Belgium, Greek, Yugoslavian, French (as FF) convoys (and defend them when the ones in the Home Country escape), together with the really really scarce probabilities to do sth to the CW convoys with AXIS subs, I believe they can play all the game without needing to buy even one extra convoy, unless there is something extra like sending BP to USSR or getting resources from USA, and depending on luck even in these cases.

Of course this means not taking some of the resources that come bordering Africa and forgetting the Med as well. You can get enough from America, + ¿4? from Africa (SA + FF) and 1 from Asia (only).

Besides, there is the handicap that you cannot activate the subs (and sometimes even deploy them) if you need to have land actions. Of course you may spend 1 Off to do so, but if you try several times, for example 3 impulses every turn, you are paying the price of 1 INF or 1/2 ARM just for activating, making the balance cost/profit of these attacks even worse.

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med.

[X(]

I still have to unpack my CE, so I didn't notice this. However, I find it to be a very strange design choice. Basically, you can go around the peninsula and enter the Eastern Med just like that, but you have to spend a movement point to enter... uhm... the very sea area where the port is situated? IIUC the thing, this is not smart [:-]

For the CE the designers made strange choices. Guderian is still not elite (OK, this is a pet peeve of mine); but neither the DAK is. I wonder how many unexploded ordinance I'll stumble into, buried in the new rulebook, once we start to play.

Side note: on BGG someone posted a version of the rulebook which omits all the optional rules - even the holy cows (ships in flames, mechanised movement, oil etc.). Basically, you play "more vanilla than the vanilla". I'm curious to play such a game because, IMHO, it will then give more context to each optional rule when you decide to use it.

[JagWars]

quote:

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med. In fact, no major Italian port does and subs can be air attacked in minor ports and can't evade. So the Italians have one lower box now in St Vincent sea zone and in most cases, for those that can get there will be a 1 box, 2 if you're real lucky on your sub picks.

Historically, Axis subs did not leave the Mediterranean. The Germans did sneak a few into the Med from the Atlantic by shutting off their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.
I was hoping that this would be corrected in RAW 8, but alias, it appears not.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

I wonder how many unexploded ordinance I'll stumble into, buried in the new rulebook, once we start to play.

Answer: a lot. Read every rule carefully. Naval movement still makes my head spin.

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

Side note: on BGG someone posted a version of the rulebook which omits all the optional rules - even the holy cows (ships in flames, mechanised movement, oil etc.). Basically, you play "more vanilla than the vanilla". I'm curious to play such a game because, IMHO, it will then give more context to each optional rule when you decide to use it.

The typography of the new rule book, when viewed in full color, makes it very, very easy to skip over any or all optional rules.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: JagWars

Historically, Axis subs did not leave the Mediterranean. The Germans did sneak a few into the Med from the Atlantic by shutting off their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.
I was hoping that this would be corrected in RAW 8, but alias, it appears not.

Not quite - Italy operated in the Atlantic - from Wikipedia:

Soon after June 1940 a submarine force was dispatched to the Atlantic, honouring a commitment to Germany to help in the Atlantic campaign. Code-named BETASOM, this force was stationed at Bordeaux in occupied France. 32 boats in total served in the Atlantic, equaling the German numbers at the time. Half of them later returned to the Mediterranean, or were converted to transports, for operations to Far East. The Italian submarines operating in the Atlantic overall sank 109 allied merchant ships totalling 593,864 tons.[6]


(Sunk 2 Convoy Points? 400K tons guessed above seems a little high to me). Italy sent one SUB counter to France, it returned to Italy later. They lost about 3 SUBs attacking strongly escorted Royal Navy targets in the Med.


Germany sent in 60 U-boats / 2 WiF SUBs. Only one came back out. 9 were sunk passing Gibraltar. Results., from Wikipedia:

The Germans sank 95 Allied merchant ships totalling 449,206 tons and 24 Royal Navy warships including two carriers, one battleship, four cruisers and 12 destroyers at the cost of 62 U-boats. Noteworthy successes were the sinking of HMS Barham, Ark Royal, Eagle and Penelope.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: JagWars

quote:

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med. In fact, no major Italian port does and subs can be air attacked in minor ports and can't evade. So the Italians have one lower box now in St Vincent sea zone and in most cases, for those that can get there will be a 1 box, 2 if you're real lucky on your sub picks.

Historically, Axis subs did not leave the Mediterranean. The Germans did sneak a few into the Med from the Atlantic by shutting off their engines and allowing the current to pull them through.
I was hoping that this would be corrected in RAW 8, but alias, it appears not.

As I understand it (and I am certainly not an expert), the current through the Gibraltar Straits has an upper level flowing in one direction and lower level flowing in the other direction. If so, then sending submarines through without using their engines should be possible in both directions.

[etsadler]

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

ORIGINAL: Sabre21

Another map change is in the Med. La Spezia no longer borders the western med.

[X(]

I still have to unpack my CE, so I didn't notice this. However, I find it to be a very strange design choice. Basically, you can go around the peninsula and enter the Eastern Med just like that, but you have to spend a movement point to enter... uhm... the very sea area where the port is situated? IIUC the thing, this is not smart [:-]

Every mainland Italian port only fronts on the Italian Coast region. What is wrong with that?

[Joseignacio]

Rick, the division of the Med in three areas is totally arbitrary, as their (sea) boundaries.

Genoa and La Specia will always face the same sea, the arbitrary limits seem to have changed. It's a matter of Game design. Geographically as far as they are between the alps and Pisa (more or less) and by the sea it obviously is correct in both cases.

[Joseignacio]

ok, although the last game we played with the latest rules closer to WIF CE, they were not exactly the same. Besides, the box itself arrived when the game was on, so we couldn't use the map.

We are using the new map for the new one but we have only played 1 day (August holidays time...) and the IT are not at war (Me = CW + USA) so I hadn't seen it.

[RFalvo69]

ORIGINAL: RickInVA
Every mainland Italian port only fronts on the Italian Coast region. What is wrong with that?

Imagine if every mainland British port only fronts a "British Coast Region", then you move into the North Sea. The level of "Uhu?" would cross the red line.

[etsadler]

Given the characteristics of the Italian Fleet, mostly 2 range with 5 and 6 movement, if the Med is going to be split into three zones then the new division makes a lot of sense to me. YMMV.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: RickInVA

Given the characteristics of the Italian Fleet, mostly 2 range with 5 and 6 movement, if the Med is going to be split into three zones then the new division makes a lot of sense to me. YMMV.

Personally, I don't grasp the splitting into the sea zones for the Med at all, not even in the old edition. Considering the range and the movement capabilities of the Italian navy historically, one should conclude that the Med should be devided in two sea zones, with Italy in between. Only if one would allow the Littorio BB's a movement rate of 6 (and not 5 as it is now), one can have 3 sea zones in the Med.
But it's probably a way of balancing the game...

[paulderynck]

Much discussed on the rules list and I think decided based on how easy or hard it may be to invade Sicily.

[quiritus]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Yes, there are changes in the deployment but I believe this is not the issue. Now I remember which was the problem with the DK reserve, GE declares war, invades and takes Copenhagen before the Danish impulse so that militia never arrives because Copenhagen is taken before the Allied impulse. I guess this needs to be changed in the rules or the Copenhaguen Militia&Reserve is worth for nothing (if it is a reserve as I believe now).

9.7 Calling out the reserves

Each major power and many minor countries have reserve units that
may now be called out provided they are at war with a major power.
During your impulse you may call out reserves of such major powers
and minor countries you control that have ‘Res’ on the back of their
counter. If a reserve unit has a particular major power named on its
back, you may only call it out while you are at war with that major
power.

I can see it's a 2-2 militia in the #24 countersheet but I cannot see it's back online, to see whether it's a RES as well.

The 2-2 is a res, but as you say is not so much relevant this change for denmark: the only is that GE have to arrive to capital in one impulse. is relevant for major: GE on first allied S/O 39 impulse don't have res on map and for URSS if GE DOW (no Leningrad MIL as exemple) or Italy if allied dow: no res on board on first enemy impulse (3 div invasion on factory hex have a 50% success 2d10 60% 1d10, fleet also have to be guarded or put in Trieste-Taranto). for most of minor only put a pressure to occupy res city on DOW impulse (UK on portugal as an example, landing on north with div in FE there is 1 GAR the first turn on capital, in CE 1 GAR and 1 MIL fd)

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: quiritus

The 2-2 is a res, but as you say is not so much relevant this change for denmark: the only is that GE have to arrive to capital in one impulse.

That's what I thought, although I made a mess of an explanation. Being a Res, you can deploy them in the Danish impulse. But if the GE waits for a Fine weather impulse and leaves there one rusty MOT DIV or a MOT CORP he can take it with no problems. IIRW you could use a Mech if you can spare one, and you can use a unit moving 5 or it could even be even 4 (and leave it disorganized) to overrun the ships that may be deployed in Friedrichshaven as well.

is relevant for major: GE on first allied S/O 39 impulse don't have res on map and for URSS if GE DOW (no Leningrad MIL as exemple) or Italy if allied dow: no res on board on first enemy impulse (3 div invasion on factory hex have a 50% success 2d10 60% 1d10, fleet also have to be guarded or put in Trieste-Taranto). for most of minor only put a pressure to occupy res city on DOW impulse (UK on portugal as an example, landing on north with div in FE there is 1 GAR the first turn on capital, in CE 1 GAR and 1 MIL fd)

Once I took my time to dis-encrypt this [:D], nice comments. [&o]