Graphics override for counter numbers not working

[BigDuke66]

I tested a bit and it indeed seems that the graphics in the game directory Graphics Override folder are not used at all.
That is not limited to the counternumbers.png and h_counternumbers.png files, it is also this way with other counter related graphic files like h_CounterUnits.png and also terrain graphics like h_Tiles_damaged_railroad.png, s_tiles_damaged_railroad.png and tiles_damaged_railroad.png for example.

I guess for now the only way to be sure that the files that the designer intended to be used are really used is to make both Graphics Override folders have identical content just to be sure.

[sPzAbt653]

For pete's sakes guys, you should definately know this by now, it's been over a year. Don't worry with why, just do:
tm.asp?m=4381180

[BigDuke66]

Explains... nothing.
It wasn't my or anyone else idea to put all the override stuff into the Graphics Override folder in the game directory, that is what the latest installer does.
And here the override stuff does not seem to work at all.

Not sure how the structure was before, I only remember much to much stuff was install under the user path, afaik more than half the game was installed there. Now as everything seems to have shifted back to the game directory to allow the user to have the TOAW stuff under the user path be his own section that he can keep even after removign the game someone seems to have missed telling the game this.

[Shadrach]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
For pete's sakes guys, you should definately know this by now, it's been over a year. Don't worry with why, just do:
tm.asp?m=4381180

This post is old, and with the latest .20 version a lot was changed on where the game looks for files. It moves the default scenarios into the game install directory, for one thing.

I asked Ralph about this a while back and he tried to clarify how it worked here:
fb.asp?m=4542846

He said: "You can put files into either the Program Files/.../(Scenario or Graphics or Graphics Override) folder or the Documents/My Games/... directory. "

From this I assumed that the Graphics Override in the game directory would also be read, but it appears not.

I had a look with Process Monitor to see if the game does any read of the folder, and it doesn't, at all. Basically these files are never used by the game, and should be deleted to avoid confusion (and save a bit of size for the installer). Problem is, how would scenarios shipped with the game then use custom graphics at all?

For instance, "Battle of Adua 1896" uses a custom rocky hex tile. Without it the map looks a mess because nearly every hex is rocky. The file in the game install directory is *never* accessed by the game.

How it should look on left, default on right:

[sPzAbt653]

But that's a Steam issue, and you guys said you weren't using Steam.

[BigDuke66]

Why is this a steam issue??? I didn't see this reported anywhere, including steam
And yes I do not use steam, and never ever used it in relation to TOAWIV.

@Shadrach
We shouldn't delete it, the game should be fixed as the separation of the content that comes with the game and the stuff that the user installs in his user folder makes sense. It just has to be made working.
As I said, for now till a fix comes out the content of that Graphics Override folder should be copied to the Graphics Override folder under the user path to make all scenario work like intended.

[sPzAbt653]

if you have a custom counternumbers that you want to use in a scenario, and you place it in the scenario specific folder in Documents...Graphics Override, are you saying that it isn't used by the game ?

[BigDuke66]

I say that the Graphics Override folder in the game directory is not used.
If it's correct what Shadrach said that game doesn't access that folder at all, so all the content there isn't used at all.

Just look here where the Operation Neva designer pointed to the problem already at the end of last year:
fb.asp?m=4573801
It wasn't just the 2 files he pointed out, nothing there is used, at least not the graphic files.

[sPzAbt653]

I went to the thread you linked, I understand what he is saying, but I did not need to DL any new version of the scenario to correct the issue. I copied my counternumber files from Russian Campaign and put them in 'Documents...Operation Neva' and it worked fine immediately [hit Ctrl + R to update Graphics on the fly [thank you Ralph]].

And that thread was from before the latest TOAW version, so there must not be a problem there. Believe me I am trying to help you identify some issue so that Ralph can look into it, but so far I still can't see where there is any issue other than you and maybe somebody else still insisting on messing with 'Program Files...' when it's been obvious for some time that is not someting to be considered. Can't you stick with 'Documents...' and leave 'Program Files...' alone ? I don't get it.

[Shadrach]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66
@Shadrach
We shouldn't delete it, the game should be fixed as the separation of the content that comes with the game and the stuff that the user installs in his user folder makes sense. It just has to be made working.
As I said, for now till a fix comes out the content of that Graphics Override folder should be copied to the Graphics Override folder under the user path to make all scenario work like intended.

Absolutely, I agree with this. I won't delete it, I'm saying it's pretty much redundant, unless someone (Ralph?) can prove otherwise and it's actually used somehow. And it really should be fixed allowing it also to act as an override.

A good use for this folder would also be to keep various stuff for the large default scenarios like FITE2, CFNA, CFSV -- Documents, maps, goodies, alternative counter symbols (Wehrmacht, Warsaw Pact etc).

IMO there should be a hierarchy consisting of the following, in order of importance:
1. Scenario specific directory in My Games -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to specific scenario.
2. Scenario specific directory in Programs -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to specific scenario, unless explicitly overridden above (this is where we are talking about).
3. Files placed in My Games -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to all scenarios, unless explicitly overridden above (this is where graphics mods work).

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Can't you stick with 'Documents...' and leave 'Program Files...' alone ? I don't get it.

Operation Neva is a default scenario included in the game, as is the example I made above (Battle of Adua). And the Campaign For North Africa scenarios use custom graphics too. None of these actually work like intended out of the box. You can't expect users to first copy the scenario files to the My Games -> Graphics Override directory before they play to not miss out on the custom stuff.

To be honest, there are not a lot of "important" stuff in the current Programs -> Graphics Override directory. A lot of redundant stuff anyway I think. And a lot of EQP/NQP files that I think are already included in the SCE files. But for scenarios like Op. Neva and others, they actually make a huge difference.

There are also a lot of these types of files:


I assume these are the old, no longer used counter colors files?

[larryfulkerson]

Absolutely, I agree with this. I won't delete it, I'm saying it's pretty much redundant, unless someone (Ralph?) can prove otherwise and it's actually used somehow. And it really should be fixed allowing it also to act as an override.

I've already deleted the redundent "Graphics OverRide" folder, the one in the "Program Files(x86)" chain. I've tested my configugration now and it still works fine. So to be clear: I have only the single Graphics Override folder in the "Documents\My Games\" chain.

[BigDuke66]

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Can't you stick with 'Documents...' and leave 'Program Files...' alone ? I don't get it.

Not sure what is not to get here. And good joke btw because the game installs all the override stuff that comes with it in the Graphics Override folder of the game, that was not me or anybody else, and that stuff IS NOT USED if placed there.
And now it's somehow my fault because of what??? Because I don't manually correct an installation that doesn't work like intended?!

Again, neither me nor anybody else here has put all the stuff in the Graphics Override folder of the game directory, that was the latest installer .
I say it as simple as I can:
GAME installs stuff were it isn't used.
So those that program the game have to fix it and nobody else.
There is no one to blame but the game, Shadrach pointed this out too again and again so it's not like I'm alone here, not to speak of the Operation Neva scenario designer also pointing to the problem.
So either Ralph corrects the installer to have the override stuff under the user path again like the old installer had it OR corrects the game so that it uses the Graphics Override folder of the game directory. I prefer the later.


And just to get it straight, all this talk about the Program Files has nothing to do with the game itself but just with Windows that needs special allows so that programs work flawless if installed into any of the Program Files folders that Windows makes. That is why everyone usually tells you to NOT install anything there, it's no TOAWIV related problem and has surely nothing to do with the problem we have here.
I at least didn't install the game in any of the folders Windows made.

And just to wrap it up.
Anyone not seeing this problem has like still the Graphics Override folder under the user path full from the old installation, of course one can't see the problem because all graphics are in a directory that the game uses.

Last but not least, the new installer already had folder problems, that is why 4.1.0.21 was thrown out, now we need 4.1.0.22 to get this folder problem solved.

ORIGINAL: Shadrach
IMO there should be a hierarchy consisting of the following, in order of importance:
1. Scenario specific directory in My Games -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to specific scenario.
2. Scenario specific directory in Programs -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to specific scenario, unless explicitly overridden above (this is where we are talking about).
3. Files placed in My Games -> Graphics Override. Files will apply to all scenarios, unless explicitly overridden above (this is where graphics mods work).

That hierarchy is good, would like to see it working that way.

[Lobster]

From what I understand the game installer puts the Graphics Override folder in the game folder because it has no way of knowing where someone is going to install the game. If the game is installed in the system drive then there needs to be a Graphics Override in the Documents folder because Micro$oft security paranoia does not allow some things to be loaded onto the system drive. If someone gets a hair up their rear and installs the game someplace other than the system drive then the Graphics Override works in the installation location. It isn't the fault of the game installer. It's the fault of Micro$oft and security paranoia. This is how I understand it.

[BigDuke66]

ORIGINAL: Lobster
From what I understand the game installer puts the Graphics Override folder in the game folder because it has no way of knowing where someone is going to install the game.

What? When I set the installation path the game obviously knows where it is installed.

ORIGINAL: Lobster
If the game is installed in the system drive then there needs to be a Graphics Override in the Documents folder because Micro$oft security paranoia does not allow some things to be loaded onto the system drive.

That counts for certain folders like Program Files & Program Files (x86) and maybe other folders from the operating system, the system drive itself isn't specially protected afaik because I do install software there and it usually works flawless.

ORIGINAL: Lobster
If someone gets a hair up their rear and installs the game someplace other than the system drive then the Graphics Override works in the installation location.

I did install on a different drive and the Graphics Override in the installation location does not work.

ORIGINAL: Lobster
It isn't the fault of the game installer. It's the fault of Micro$oft and security paranoia. This is how I understand it.

Sorry no, there isn't anything Windows related here, the game just doesn't use the folder it itself installed but the one under the user path. If it would be the other way around you could maybe think Windows blocks access or so but not with the current constellation.

[Lobster]

Of course it knows where it is. I never said it didn't. But the programmer never knows what weird crap a user is going to pull so has to attempt to cover some logical bases. It's known as dummy proofing. Of course the dummys usually find a way to be more dumb than the programmer ever imagined. [:D]

So, when you install TOAW on the system drive the guy that did the program has to assume you will do the default and so there is a folder in Documents to cover THAT base. But if a user installs it somewhere other then the default the programmer has to cover THAT base too. I'm not saying it works right or it works wrong. I'm saying this is how it needs to be done because of Micro$oft. Both eventualities have to be covered. That's the only reason I can see for having the Graphics Override installed in both places. That IS Windows related.

What I'm not going to do is install anything more that what's on my computer. I'll try the wife's laptop. She's asleep and won't know a thing. Get back after I see what happens. This should be a fine pita.

[Lobster]

A fresh install does not put anything in the Documents/.../Graphics Override file. It's totally empty. The game looks in that folder for modified files and finds nothing there. You have to manually put the correct files there if you want them to be used.

After the game was installed there wasn't even a TOAW folder in Documents. I started FitE2 and only after I started a game did the Documents/.../Graphics Override folder appear. So it's no surprise it's empty since a TOAW folder didn't even exist until I started a scenario.

[BigDuke66]

DELETE PLEASE

[BigDuke66]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Of course it knows where it is. I never said it didn't. But the programmer never knows what weird crap a user is going to pull so has to attempt to cover some logical bases. It's known as dummy proofing. Of course the dummys usually find a way to be more dumb than the programmer ever imagined. [:D]

So, when you install TOAW on the system drive the guy that did the program has to assume you will do the default and so there is a folder in Documents to cover THAT base. But if a user installs it somewhere other then the default the programmer has to cover THAT base too. I'm not saying it works right or it works wrong. I'm saying this is how it needs to be done because of Micro$oft. Both eventualities have to be covered. That's the only reason I can see for having the Graphics Override installed in both places. That IS Windows related.

Neither the drive nor the "weird crap a user is going to pull" has something to do with it.
The user folder is always there as that one is made by Windows and it can be utilized by all programs, that is why so much crap ends up there because, unlike the earlier days of the PC where one coudl bet on finding save files in the game directory, today every software what to store there stuff somewhere under the user folder.
You can install the game wherever you want TOAWIV will always add a folder under the user path.

AFAIk the reason for having 2 Graphics Override folders is because the stuff installed by the game and the stuff installed by the user should be separate. So to make sure if the game is removed the stuff installed by the user, that a reinstallation of the game could not provide, is still there and usable & recoverable by the user.

[BigDuke66]

ORIGINAL: Lobster

A fresh install does not put anything in the Documents/.../Graphics Override file. It's totally empty. The game looks in that folder for modified files and finds nothing there. You have to manually put the correct files there if you want them to be used.

After the game was installed there wasn't even a TOAW folder in Documents. I started FitE2 and only after I started a game did the Documents/.../Graphics Override folder appear. So it's no surprise it's empty since a TOAW folder didn't even exist until I started a scenario.

And that solves the problem of the Graphics Override folder in the game directory not being used... not.
Not sure what you expected but that is the way the latest installer works, unlike earlier version that installed half the game under the user path.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: BigDuke66

And that solves the problem of the Graphics Override folder in the game directory not being used... not.
Not sure what you expected but that is the way the latest installer works, unlike earlier version that installed half the game under the user path.

What it does is pin down the problem in a way that someone does not have to read through post after post trying to figure out what exactly is being said. Now it's up to someone to fix it. Please, continue as you were. [;)]