Stalingrad: Nightmare on The Volga

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: Deathtreader
1/ Add a new attack option called Probe. This is the best way to test enemy resistance without going into a full blown type of attack. I've tried to emulate this by using weak units with with low levels of Quality in an effort to keep the battle intensity at the lowest possible level. After all, I'm only testing the enemy and gathering some more intel prior to going ahead with an Attack or Assault (or not). However, it has not worked well. Usually results in the prober being vaporized with a minuscule increase in intel.

Rob,

I think we've addressed the "definition of a probe"--but I don't know that we've addressed/understand your capability requirement. If in your view we don't get your point--would you care to take another swing at it? Open ears.

[Deathtreader]

Hi,

Like Saint Ruth I hadn't been looking at it in quite that way. Good enough though. Thanks for taking the time to work thru it.

Rob.

[bcgames]

OK then. Keep poking at the system please.

[bcgames]

So I'm playing the Sidi Bou Zid scenario with Okayrun3254 and he sez (paraphrasing), "I can send you some map shots from Atomic Games Stalingrad game." I said, "Sure." The only Atomic Game I owned and played was "Operation Crusader"...so I was expecting more of the same. Oh no! Atomic Games Stalingrad has three ground scales:

400 meters/hex
1000 meters/hex
3000 meters/hex

So here I thought I was going to be all innovative by having two ground scales in Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga. UUURRRRRRR!!! (airhorn!). That game has been plowed already. I'm going to stick to two ground scales 500 meters/hex and 2500 meters/hex. But it is good to know that someone else looked at the same situation and came up with multiple scales solution.

Onwards!

[Okayrun3254]

ORIGINAL: bcgames

So I'm playing the Sidi Bou Zid scenario with Okayrun3254 and he sez (paraphrasing), "I can send you some map shots from Atomic Games Stalingrad game." I said, "Sure." The only Atomic Game I owned and played was "Operation Crusader"...so I was expecting more of the same. Oh no! Atomic Games Stalingrad has three ground scales:

400 meters/hex
1000 meters/hex
3000 meters/hex

So here I thought I was going to be all innovative by having two ground scales in Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga. UUURRRRRRR!!! (airhorn!). That game has been plowed already. I'm going to stick to two ground scales 500 meters/hex and 2500 meters/hex. But it is good to know that someone else looked at the same situation and came up with multiple scales solution.

Onwards!

Avalon Hill/ Atomic Games really put out some great games in the day. The Stalingrad one was my favorite. I think they were ahead of there time back in the 90's, but they also had substantial resources to draw upon. IMHO, the two scales, 500 meters/hex, and 2500 meters/hex will cover all the requirements for scenario development and then some. Really looking forward to this one.

[Saint Ruth]

ORIGINAL: Okayrun3254
Avalon Hill/ Atomic Games really put out some great games in the day. The Stalingrad one was my favorite. I think they were ahead of there time back in the 90's, but they also had substantial resources to draw upon. IMHO, the two scales, 500 meters/hex, and 2500 meters/hex will cover all the requirements for scenario development and then some. Really looking forward to this one.

Yeah, those games were great, and imagine, they were sold on the highstreet. I bought my versions of Stalingrad / Crusader in Virgin Megastore way back in the day... [8D]

[bcgames]

I am currently working on the Stalingrad City map build at 500 meters per hex. In the process, I'm starting to see how well the current campaign engine design can bounce between game/scenario time/ground scales. "Carryover" can take your "target unit/organization" from regiment to battalion-level and back to regiment-level (if required). The bottom-line is this--the campaign capability in the game will allow battle outside the city of Stalingrad at regimental level. Inside the city? Battalion/Company level is possible. Set-up areas are the key to transitioning units/organizations from one campaign scenario to the next.

[Okayrun3254]

One of my favorite boardgames, MMP's Panzer Battles - 11 Panzer on the Chir River, uses 500 meters per hex scale with mostly company and battalion level units, and some Soviet regiments. I like this scale for specific battles because of the company level of units. What is interesting is each turn is 2-3 days long. I guess the number of turns is reflected in the units movement points and other factors.

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: Okayrun3254

One of my favorite boardgames, MMP's Panzer Battles - 11 Panzer on the Chir River, uses 500 meters per hex scale with mostly company and battalion level units, and some Soviet regiments. I like this scale for specific battles because of the company level of units. What is interesting is each turn is 2-3 days long. I guess the number of turns is reflected in the units movement points and other factors.

I have this game but have never played it. It's always interesting to see how other game designers address time/spatial/organizational issues.

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: bcgames

I am currently working on the Stalingrad City map build at 500 meters per hex. In the process, I'm starting to see how well the current campaign engine design can bounce between game/scenario time/ground scales. "Carryover" can take your "target unit/organization" from regiment to battalion-level and back to regiment-level (if required). The bottom-line is this--the campaign capability in the game will allow battle outside the city of Stalingrad at regimental level. Inside the city? Battalion/Company level is possible. Set-up areas are the key to transitioning units/organizations from one campaign scenario to the next.

Having looked at Avalon Hill's/Atomic Games' version of Stalingrad, I'm considering the inclusion of another map scale to get the full 6.Armee experience--Operation Heron (Stalingrad to Astrakhan) in Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga. Two scales under consideration are 5K and 10K per hex. Unit scale remains the same--regiments with battalion breakdowns. Time period is the same and the area of operation is expanded to include Astrakhan and part of the Caspian Sea. The Caucasus is out; and so are the units that operated there. The game remains centered on Stalingrad and the units that fought there.

Blame this new idea on TIK. Thinking--Not deciding. The Germans really don't have a chance in Hell of getting to Astrakhan. Maybe that's why we never see Antwerp as an objective in Battle of the Bulge games.

[bcgames]

Just finished constructing the OB files for the Axis and Allies for 1 Dec 1942...over 1200 lines of HQs/Units at regimental level. This huge OB is designed to support a set of very small--PLAYABLE--scenarios that are linked into a set of campaign games.

[789456281]

So what game is this?

[wodin]

The 500m scale is what really excites me!

Any screenshots of the 500m scale map? WIll there be a map of the city at 500m? I do hope so!

Didn't buy Desert War. This however is a cert! I can see it being one of my all time fav digital wargames.

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: 789456281

So what game is this?

Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Didn't buy Desert War...

So...your views are...

[wodin]

Not normally one to judge visuals however I found the UI and other aspects unappealing just looked very homemade to me. Also stacks, don't like them. Theatre isn't my favourite. Negative comments about AI. Scale not my favourite so a game has to be grabbing me in ways DW didn't if it's not tactical.

The pros with regards to DW for me was it's WEGO.

Now Stalingrad has a lot that's really got me excited. WEGO, Stalingrad, 500m scale, Stacking been looked at, Maps look amazing. I hope the UI and icons are improved.

Are casualties counted abstractly or can we see how many men killed\wounded AFVs destroyed etc?

[wodin]

Can lack of supplies cause attrition and effect moral plus eventually restrict attacks etc?

Also can extreme cold weather have an effect on inf performance? Can extreme cold weather have a greater effect on low supplies troops? Simulating how the cold effects hungry\starving troops more than we'll fed ones.

I'm thinking about how to simulate the slow death of the 6th Army once being surrounded started to bite.

[bcgames]

ORIGINAL: wodin
Not normally one to judge visuals however I found the UI and other aspects unappealing just looked very homemade to me.

As far as I can recall, the only thing that was not homemade about Desert War was the GUI and the box art. I'm willing to do homemade if Saint Ruth wants to give it another go. It's a low priority for me and Stalingrad.

ORIGINAL: wodin
Also stacks, don't like them.

Lots of open space to cover in Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga.

ORIGINAL: wodin
Theatre isn't my favourite.

That's fair.

ORIGINAL: wodin
Negative comments about AI.

This improved in the patches.

ORIGINAL: wodin
Scale not my favourite so a game has to be grabbing me in ways DW didn't if it's not tactical.

Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga will be multi-scaled. People will want all one scale over the other--that's tough--the game will be multi-scaled. The campaign game doesn't work as an interesting game any other way.

ORIGINAL: wodin
Are casualties counted abstractly or can we see how many men killed\wounded AFVs destroyed etc?

Wargames are abstractions. On casualties, Saint Ruth has stated he may take a look at this idea after he locks down the campaign game mechanics. I support his approach.

[bcgames]

Good thoughts.

ORIGINAL: wodin
Can lack of supplies cause attrition and effect moral plus eventually restrict attacks etc?

Yes. This is handled thru scenario design.

ORIGINAL: wodin
Also can extreme cold weather have an effect on inf performance? Can extreme cold weather have a greater effect on low supplies troops? Simulating how the cold effects hungry\starving troops more than we'll fed ones.

Yes. This is handled thru scenario design.

ORIGINAL: wodin

I'm thinking about how to simulate the slow death of the 6th Army once being surrounded started to bite.

Me too. The editor for Stalingrad: Nightmare on the Volga is way more robust than Desert War's.

[bcgames]

I am currently building the first divisional-level campaign game to test the Stalingrad campaign game system/editor. I selected the 11th (gespenster/Ghost) Panzer Division and its battles along the Chir River in December 1942 for the test. Currently this campaign will have five scenarios...four battles along the Chir and the fifth representing the post-Christmas counterattacks to retake the Tatsinskaya airfield. 11.PzD losses will carryover from one scenario to the next in the campaign...though there will be opportunities to receive replacements.