Of Interest to ASL fans

AlvinS · Post by **AlvinS** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 1:15 am

Thats like using Britanny Spears latest song in my game and just giving her credit for it. Giving credit has nothing to do with the legalities of using or reproducing something.

I understand what you are saying. Giving credit does not equal permission to reproduce the game or anything else. IMHO someone who is illegally producing a game would not give credit to the one he stole it from. I may be wrong, but it just does not make sense.

I enjoy wargames, both board and computer, and I will not intentionally do anything to harm my hobby.

Posted by Cheeks

Veldor, do you subscribe to the ASL email-newsgroup? This is a service provided by Multi-Man Publishing (current & BEST producer of ASL products). Lars is a respected AND contributing member of the forum and has posted updates concerning JASL for nearly a year or more. I might add that the owner of MMP (Curt Shilling [sp?]) and other employees of MMP show up daily on the list. MMP is known for adhering quite vigorously to all copyright / Hasbro issues dealing with ASL and they informed of JASL. MMP has paid for the licensing and ALL ASL players know if MMP doesn't turn a profit, there will be no ASL

If MMP or Hasbro has a problem with Lars, I am sure they will set him straight. If he Is producing the game illegally I will not use it. However, just short of asking him to see in writing, permission to produce the program what else do we go by? I took Matrix at their word that they had permission to update Steel Panthers and create SPWAW.

I will purchase ASL from MMP as soon as the printing of the basic manual is complete.

Cheeks · Post by **Cheeks** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 4:46 am

NOW HEAR THIS:

>>In regards to someone elses comment that they state you have to buy the actual components to play. I laugh out loud if you think everyone that downloads the game is going to follow the rules or if you think stating that makes it anymore legal under the law.<<

I agree that 100% that use the program will not purchase the modules or rules. I firmly believe that 75% or better of beginning players will go on to purchase the game and future modules. I base this on the fact that you would only use this program if you're interested in WWII, tacticaly minded and love the immersion of the sport. Otherwise it would not stay on a persons hard drive.

>>VASL was originallly seen as a tool to use along with the game. Now if you buy just the core rulebook and get a few photocopies from a friend you never need to buy another module.<<

Bingo...a purchase has been made and the sport has grown a small x%. Thats the aim of the program. An interest has been shown. Now, the percentage chance that this person will go on to buy another product is EXTREMELY LARGER than the person who didn't buy anything. Marketing.....lovely tool.

>>A version with an AI elimates the need even further and provides yet another method for it.<<

Wrong. The program gives no written rules, unit capabilities, non-legal LOS (in VASL it is stated to use the orginal boards to trace LOS because the "virtual boards" aren't always correct). In essence...you're blind, deaf and dumb without a further purchase.

>>But what about the more casual ASL player? They are dumping their stuff on Ebay and not buying anymore modules because they dont have to. Granted Im only speaking off some I know but Im sure it represents a good number of the non diehard" players. I fail to see how that is good for the hobby or MMP.<<

They've made a purchase and decided that the game wasn't for them. Fine. They sell it on E-bay, someone purchases it at a reduced cost, this person might get hook, ending with a furture purchase. Perfect business model.

>Finding opponents for ASL is hard. Thats why there needs to be an "OFFICIAL" computer ASL tool, game or whatever not half a dozen shotty amateur products.<<

Shotty amateur... I take offense to your statement. These are enhancments done by people who have to get up in the morning and go to work with nothing to profit from except recognition from the ASL community and with the blessing of MMP. If you're a player of ASL then I'm embarrased to be associated with the game.

>>MMP has never pursued those that ripoff their titles and make freebie pc adaptations and tools.<<

TTP (third party products) have been vigurously attacked by MMP. Seriously.... how can you say this. I ask you again, do you subscribe to the ASL mailing list? If so, than you would be able to follow a play by play of MMP's (could be Hasbro's) lawyers at work.

THAT IS ALL:

Cheeks

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 5:34 am

Anyone that has seen the ASL rule book knows what it looks like.

Danged hard to fake this game to be sure.

But I also have a few good books on theoretical physics around here.

Given a chance, I can make the physics of black holes make sense as easily as I can point out, that ASL is as easy as you wish to make it.

In wargaming, finding new players, is like finding a new job, finding a new mate, or anything else sought after that is often not just found at every turn.

You only get what you look for, and where you look determines what you find, and how easily it is located.

I can say, I can teach ASL to anyone. But that's me.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:01 am

Since this topic has gotten a bit off-track, lets start new instead of picking apart each others word choices.

Since this thread was not really about the pros and cons of VASL but rather another new product, lets all just agree for the moment that VASL is a great product thus far (and for the most part it is THUS far).

Now given that VASL is a "community" & "open source" effort that virtually anyone can get the source code for or at least portions of it and/or contribute too.... And noting that its written in Java...WHY on earth would someone want to go out and DUPLICATE nearly that entire effort just to add some things.

Why are they not instead expanding on VASL? Add AI to VASL? And so on.

And if you WERE going to make a seperate product.. You wouldnt do it with the very same tool as VASL. Not Java. You would use something else. Most likely C++, so that you could deliver the Game at a level and with features the java version couldnt. Making another JAVA version is just plain stupid, against the community effort, and no more commmercially sellable than VASL..probably even less so.

So someone tell me why this OTHER java version is needed? Why we cant just have one freebie game instead of two? And why MMP would want to support it?

As for what I believe the "next" PC adaptation of ASL should be: A commercial one. Why? Because we already have a "freebie" one. And a commercial app just simply will not be a java based one. Cold hearted fact. It will be done by someone on their off hours yes. And it will preserve the look and feel perfectly (as VASL has) because the ASL community would revolt otherwise. But it would also include much much more that VASL doesn't.

For Les Specifically: You have stated many many times that a PC is just a tool and can do little to "better" or "replace" the actual boardgame. Ignoring all other games.. Your statement is more true of a game like ASL than any other. This is easily seen in VASL and though VASL is the ONLY tool we have that fact is also its biggest flaw. It ISNT even close to a pc replacement for the boardgame.

Of course now everyone will flame me stating its not suppose to be and/or they don't want one. If so then that is the simple difference here. Many would like a PC replacement for ASL. A "Perfect" adaptation if you will. VASL is far from that mark and the new endeavor does not fair any better. It is with that goal in mind that I state everything I have.

I would like to see developed (by myself, MMP, or ANYONE) a FULL PC adaptation of ASL. And of course a PC version would have to go even farther and provide ADDITIONAL value such as very usefull tools, player aids, analysis and whatever else beyond simple dice rolls.

Where is the evil in that? Cut me some slack here I'm a fan too or I wouldn't be trying to encourage all the PC ports I am and doing some of them myself...

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:59 am

Flame no, you have not said anything meriting flame.

I would think a full out total committment to a computerised ASL would not be a "bad thing".

Unless it detracted from the "real thing".

But is the real thing the only thing?

I for instance don't really care for computer rolegames. I have seen them and investigated them, but only to understand them.

But frankly, to me, computer rolegames miss the mark like masturbating with online porn is a dumb way to get sex.

Rolegaming to me is all about the social interaction of people in the same room. It helps to have a fun game, a competent game runner and players that meld well naturally. You can say that about anything that involves several people though.

Playing ASL on the computer would be similarly unsatisfying to me compared to playing the actual game. That is if I had to chose.
Playing it on the computer would be a nice way to allow me to play someone internationally though.

But to me the game is about rolling the dice and then praying there is enough modifications to allow that cool result. Peering down at those counters, and trying to picture myself actually in the terrain. Listening to martial sounding backdrop and bantering with my opponent about wargaming in general.

That just doesn't come through in a computer game with the inclusion of a chat line function. It's not the same.

I can agree though, it might be silly to put out a program with inefficient software. But that is a realm of expertise way over my head, so I won't presume to comment on the merits of Java (as I am unable to).
It would not be the first time though, a project went forth with more than one effort thanks to differing opinions of the beter way.

That is why some will play one version of Steel Panthers and some will play the other. Everyone has their own vision sometimes.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:47 am

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
I can agree though, it might be silly to put out a program with inefficient software. But that is a realm of expertise way over my head, so I won't presume to comment on the merits of Java (as I am unable to).
It would not be the first time though, a project went forth with more than one effort thanks to differing opinions of the beter way.

That is why some will play one version of Steel Panthers and some will play the other. Everyone has their own vision sometimes.

Well whats so silly here is that both projects are using Java. That just doesnt make sense and only would hurt further a "non-java" effort or commercial effort. It can't help it anyway. Its also a waste of the second parties time and its doubtful it will be okay'd by MMP. Makes much more sense to just expand VASL instead.

But I've already said all that.

As for your other comments. I know well your position on computer vs board games (as does most anyone by now on this forum). But I will say since VASL and JASL are not tools that in anyway help you play the boardgame face to face... The issue more revolves around VASL vs JASL vs a FULL PC ASL version.

Now I dont think I would be too far out of line to state that most, given the PC space, would GREATLY prefer a full pc asl version (even at a commercial level) instead of what VASL brings us today or what JASL will.

That statement is not meant to be disrespectful of the efforts put in by many on VASL. They did what they could. I do not know the motivation for the JASL author to not help VASL and make his own mostly redundant product instead but I too assume he has only honorable intentions.

Mostly the above has little to do though with legality and/or MMP's position on those products or a future product. And while a commercial PC ASL product may likely never be made, it does not alter the fact that I see a second JAVA based product as only a hinderance to that possibility or to the possibility of making VASL even better.

Clearly too it would seem not in MMP's best interests to support two seperate efforts, or especially three in the case of a commercial development ASL project being brought before them.

For any board or cardgame there is an audience for the non-pc game only, an audience for both pc and non-pc, and yes most importantly a mostly untapped audience of pc only enthusiasts. With any hope some of them are entertained and interested enough to pickup the boargame later on.

The debate on whether ASL would make a good PC game is long and drawnout and I've been on both sides of that fence at one point or another. But I don't think it can really be said that VASL is anywhere close to what THAT PC ASL game should ultimately be.

My interest is in the greater picture here.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 9:59 am

One major hurdle not easy to find a solution to, is making a PC ASL even appealing to the computer predominant crowd at all.

The same response is potentially likely, that you get from people that take one look at Steel Panthers, and moan about how it looks to boring.

Then there is the percentage of people, that would almost certainly say something inexplicably impossible to fathom, such as, can you make ASL with 3d graphics and in real time?

I mean, hmm why would I even want to?

If I wanted a 3d real time ASL, I would likely sit back and wait for something along the lines of a game that started out to be a 3d real time game.

ASL on the table, is not going to be much different from ASL on the PC to a large swath of the gaming public, even if thanks to the computer, much of the manual was defacto hidden in the guise of a computer program.

I like the detail myself, but it's not likely going to be a mainstream comment any time soon.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 10:01 am

Why there is more than one java using program out there is not easy to fathom. I have not encountered the creators.

They might share differing opinions on how it should be done, yet both have no problem employing java.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 6:52 pm

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
One major hurdle not easy to find a solution to, is making a PC ASL even appealing to the computer predominant crowd at all.

The same response is potentially likely, that you get from people that take one look at Steel Panthers, and moan about how it looks to boring.

Then there is the percentage of people, that would almost certainly say something inexplicably impossible to fathom, such as, can you make ASL with 3d graphics and in real time?

I mean, hmm why would I even want to?

If I wanted a 3d real time ASL, I would likely sit back and wait for something along the lines of a game that started out to be a 3d real time game.

ASL on the table, is not going to be much different from ASL on the PC to a large swath of the gaming public, even if thanks to the computer, much of the manual was defacto hidden in the guise of a computer program.

I like the detail myself, but it's not likely going to be a mainstream comment any time soon.

I agree with all that but its a seperate debate. Since there is already a partial PC adaptation I think it can easily be said that it could be a lot better and have a lot more features. Likewise the point is if you are going to start developing a second seperate product it would be pointless unless your going to make a better product and replacement for the first. Which as a Java app has no reason to be better and no ability to be supported by MMP over the original VASL.

You wont find much support for a commercial ASL product around Matrix for obvious reasons. If done right it has more validity than some think I believe(It is, after all, not THAT much different than some games already out or coming out for the PC). But even if we agree that would be a dumb idea altogether, my statement still stands. It is a waste of time on the part of the developer, the ASL community, and MMP to support a DUPLICATE JAVA-BASED ASL Game. We already have one of those thats been around for YEARS and is open source enough that just about anyone could join the project that wanted to.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 7:56 pm

I feel like the guy that nodded off in class and thinks they missed something.

Veldor, what is the software this remark refers to?

"We already have one of those thats been around for YEARS and is open source enough that just about anyone could join the project that wanted to."

I know of VASL and the Java ASL program. Were you actually referring to one of those?

As for Matrix supporting a commercial ASL game, well I can't see that being realistic.
I mean with Steel Panthers and soon Combat Leader, it would be odd for us to ask them to produce a computerised version of a board game that some would say would be so close to what those two games are, as to be duplication of effort, or even contrary to producing Combat Leader.

MMP has been for 2002 and 2003 quite swamped with hassle of getting ASL the real thing back into print. A major undertaking to be sure. Sorting out their core line and all that, has not left them endless open space for fringe efforts.
They have even managed to sell out the 2nd Edition reprinted manual even at a 100 dollar (Canadian) price tag (pretty impressive I think).

Taking and realising a better VASLesque design much just currently be a bridge to far at this time.

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:14 pm

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Veldor, what is the software this remark refers to?

Yes, I was refering to VASL, which I personally have had at least 3 years and it seems more like 4 or 5 possibly. In either case its been around a long while.

As for Matrix supporting a commercial ASL game, well I can't see that being realistic.
I mean with Steel Panthers and soon Combat Leader, it would be odd for us to ask them to produce a computerised version of a board game that some would say would be so close to what those two games are, as to be duplication of effort, or even contrary to producing Combat Leader.

Agreed and then some. Already stated the same. Though whether Combat Leader unanimously pleases everyone out there remains to be seen. It is unlikely one software product could ever be to the likeing of everyone. Especially the wargamer crowd. All the more reason why they split the game into two different games. You can't please everyone and its a fools errand to try.

MMP has been for 2002 and 2003 quite swamped with hassle of getting ASL the real thing back into print.
Taking and realising a better VASLesque design much just currently be a bridge to far at this time.

Yes. Fortuneately though they have nothing to do much with VASL at the moment. Nor is it likely if they did support another effort, that much effort on their part would be needed for that either.

Somehow we are just spinning in circles now. Whether a better full pc version of ASL ever gets made or not my point is there is no need AT ALL for the other JAVA based version that is being done (in what I am assuming is an MMP unsupported effort, though really irrelevant to my opinion.). If another ASL effort is done, Ever, then it should be something far better than VASL, near to if not commercial quality, and fully supported by MMP.

Otherwise lets all just continue with VASL and improve it as a community effort.

Thats it, Thats all, You either agree or disagree with that?

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Apr 15, 2003 8:37 pm

Ok you seem conversant on software Veldor, what do you know of and what are your opinions on the software used for these games?

http://www.warplanner.com/
I am not very fluent in the software used to run Advanced Third Reich on the computer as yet.

http://www.hpssims.com/pages/products/a ... -Main.html
This is also a known multi board game option. It's a retail item, and it has some titles I am very interested in.

http://www.hexwar.com/
This requires a monthly fee, not sure there is any brains in that though.

http://cyberboard.brainiac.com/
This is something similar in purpose as well to VASL.

I have seen these sites, but only this year. I am unaware of what it is that makes them tic though. So my interest is in your ability to comment on them at the software level.

larth · Post by **larth** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:09 am

Hi,

I was not going to enter this yet but as the author of JASL I feel it has degraded enough.

First of all: to Les & Cheeks: thank you seing the pros and cons of computerized ASL. I appreciate it.

Veldor,

I don't know who you are, but I need to clear up just some of your missunderstandings on this topic.

0) I am definitely not going to steal anything from MMP, on the contrary I am spending (and have been spending since 1997) a huge amount of my sparetime designing the Finnish ASL-module together with Tuomo Lukkari. Over the years I have exchanged 1200+ emails with him, other designers and MMP on the topic. I also submitted and worked on SASL rules for Red Barricades (which did not turn into something unfortunately, but that is life).

Each release of JASL have been announced on the ASL Mailinglist run by MMP, and I am fully aware of while that doesn't contribute any form of agreement with MMP or Hasbro or anyone else on the matter, I have had feeling that it's existance was tolerated. In any way it has not been hidden, and I cannot believe that it has caused any loss of profit to MMP.

On the contrary I have received only positive emails with people stating their support and offers of helping out. These comments comes from people that are game shop owners, wargame designers, ASL players and others in the know. Your opinions here are the first negative ones since I started on JASL.

Anyway, in the meantime I have contacted MMP to clarify what their position on this is. If it is their wish I will remove JASL immediately.

1) JASL competes with VASL

... another competing JAVA app is all the more worse for VASL

VASL enables a HUMAN player to play another HUMAN player either directly or via PBEM to play ASL.

JASL enables a HUMAN player to play a COMPUTER player in ASL.

I hope that was clear for you.

Just for the record: I have been an avid fan of VASL since its start, when I contributed a non-trivial amount of money, and since then have provided hints / suggestions / improvements and more to Rodney on this. If you have really used VASL you may have seen my name in the User Guide Appendice (it is online).

We (I and Rodney) have discussed the possibility of a future connection between JASL and VASL (I would like JASL to stand on its own first) and I have made it clear that I have *no* plans to copy the functionality of VASL in JASL. VASL is a great tool which has enabled me to play a great number of enjoyable and memorable games over the years.

2) Java, the language

Java is awful. It's not even worth an argument.

How do you know? If you want to learn I can point out some good tutorials for you.

I'll win it just by saying not a single commercial game product uses Java.

Ah, that will surprise a whole lot of java programmers. In addition to what you find on google (try "java game market"), here is one, IL-2, a flightsim you might have heard of:

http://www.javalobby.org/threadMode3.js ... sage=10211

Their support page is at

http://forums.ubi.com/messages/overview ... urmovik_ts

And some other resources:

http://www.javagaming.org/cgi-bin/JGOForums/YaBB.cgi

http://www.resequencer.com/index.html

http://gamejug.org/

Not bad for an "awful" language IMO.

3) Computer ASL or not

Honestly put, after finishing Up Front if that worked out, I very much would have like to do a professional ASL app myself.

and

I would like to see developed (by myself, MMP, or ANYONE) a FULL PC adaptation of ASL.

Perhaps this is your real problem with JASL? That the "ANYONE" is not you ... otherwise "ANYONE" is doing it right now.

The main problem "diehards" have is a total boardgame biased view which makes certain interface issues very difficult. Its also doubtful the AI can ever be very good and of course graphics performance and game aids etc with Java are not what they should be. etc. etc.

BTW: ASL "diehards" have stated that what they like about JASL is that it really *is* like ASL and not some arcade-style quickie that skips the "difficult" interface issues while adding "realistic" sound effects. What kind of graphics performance problems do you expect to have with an ASL style computer game, I mean it is a bit different from doom and quake et al.

Finding opponents for ASL is hard. Thats why there needs to be an "OFFICIAL" computer ASL tool, game or whatever not half a dozen shotty amateur products

I don't know anyone else that feels that JASL is "shotty" but perhaps you are right. Anyway it certainly doesn't apply to Rodney's VASL. I think you owe him an apology.

yours,
Lars

--

"2b|!2b?" (Hamlet)

JASL - computer ASL http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

Cheeks · Post by **Cheeks** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:22 am

NOW HEAR THIS:

Beer for Lars!

Milk for Veldor !

THAT IS ALL:

Cheeks

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:29 am

Lars post number one? how long ya been hiding here man.

Glad you are here, glad you were able to give me the straight dope.

I will hopefully do what has been done for me before, attempt to say Veldor is an alright dude (but he can be like me "hot headed" about some views).

I hope you enjoy the Matrix forum, we have a good ASL friendly audience in here.

Most are supportive of the notion, that Steel Panthers is in so many ways, an almost ASL made computerised.

If you have not had the pleasure of playing Steel Panthers (hey I am surprised regularly that I can find people that haven't hehe), do try it, and give it your ASLers opinon.

Either way, glad you could give your input. I also have tried to get some interest going at Wargamer.

http://www.wargamer.com/forum/wargamer/ ... PIC_ID=914

Ya I linked that thread to here and this one hehe.

larth · Post by **larth** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:39 am

Les,

Aye, post one and no hiding - I honestly had no clue about this forum till two days ago or so when JASL was included in the consim update. I went here and tried to stay out of this...

I've tried Steel Panthers and it has its charms, but these days when I am front of the PC I write software (very little playing...).

I had a look at wargamers: the AI will certainly dissapoint at this stage, it is minimal. Did you get JASL going on your machine or what happens?

see you,
Lars

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 3:56 am

Originally posted by larth
Anyway, in the meantime I have contacted MMP to clarify what their position on this is. If it is their wish I will remove JASL immediately.

That is the proper thing to do. It leaves nothing to question. Silent lack of opposition is not support. MMP needs to take a stance one way or the other on the slew of "freebie" products out there.

1) JASL competes with VASL

VASL enables a HUMAN player to play another HUMAN player either directly or via PBEM to play ASL.

JASL enables a HUMAN player to play a COMPUTER player in ASL.

I hope that was clear for you.

Yep. But I don't have to learn one version of Uncommon Valor to play pbem and another to play vs the computer. Two different interfaces, two different ways to do things, two different everything. Why should a computer ASL version have to be any different? Maybe I can start the Network-Based version of ASL as yet another product. NASL. Network ASL. I hope you see my point. Why 3 products when 1 product could have all the features.

We (I and Rodney) have discussed the possibility of a future connection between JASL and VASL (I would like JASL to stand on its own first) and I have made it clear that I have *no* plans to copy the functionality of VASL in JASL. VASL is a great tool which has enabled me to play a great number of enjoyable and memorable games over the years.

Why wait? It might take a little restructuring of the base code but it will be far far harder to combine the two later on. You also ARE duplicating code (if not functionality) in that you still have to write code to manipulate the pieces, maps and so on just as VASL does.

2) Java, the language
How do you know? If you want to learn I can point out some good tutorials for you.
Ah, that will surprise a whole lot of java programmers. In addition to what you find on google (try "java game market"), here is one, IL-2, a flightsim you might have heard of:
Not bad for an "awful" language IMO.

I know many languages. Perhaps I should rephrase my original statement to "MOST Commercial Games were programmed in C++" instead of ALL. There is never an ALL. Just as there is a reason why most commercial games are made with DirectX, there are reasons why most use C++. A Java vs C++ comparison is not much different than other ones such as Visual Basic vs C++. Visual Basic is a higher language.. therefore easier to program with but less powerful. Java is not far from that same boat. MFC is another example of something far easier to use but seldom used in games (Not never. I believe Flashpoint Germany from Matrix is using MFC which I am a beta tester of and it applies nicely there).

Java will work nicely for the "smaller" ASL adaptation that VASL and JASL is but I stand by my belief it wouldn't work as well for a FULL blown version of Computer ASL with full functionality vs a C++ DirectX app. Of course thats not what your making, but as I stated. I think it would be better to expand the Java VASL app than to make a second Java ASL app.

Perhaps this is your real problem with JASL? That the "ANYONE" is not you ... otherwise "ANYONE" is doing it right now.

Nah. Like I said somewhere here I've been on the fence back and forth as to whether a Full ASL PC adaptation would be worth anything. If Combat Leader is great... its probably less duable.. but its also less doable the more "freebie" apps there are. Thats just common sense.

BTW: ASL "diehards" have stated that what they like about JASL is that it really *is* like ASL and not some arcade-style quickie that skips the "difficult" interface issues while adding "realistic" sound effects. What kind of graphics performance problems do you expect to have with an ASL style computer game, I mean it is a bit different from doom and quake et al.

Hmm. I don't know what you mean by all that. Must have misunderstood a comment I made. I would want a PC version of ASL to be "TRUE" to the boardgame as well, else there is no value whatsoever in it vs other products out there. I think the point I was making is that a computerized version of ASL needs to provide things the boardgame doesnt to be successfull. Like analysis, summaries, players aids, etc as super generic examples. I dont generally like the way Java graphics and programs look/perform so I may have stated something about that vs C++/DirectX combo.

I don't know anyone else that feels that JASL is "shotty" but perhaps you are right. Anyway it certainly doesn't apply to Rodney's VASL. I think you owe him an apology.

Well I deserve it on this one but that statement was. "What we need is a commercial or semi-commercial pc version of ASL, not a half dozen shotty amateur products". By that I wasn't really refering to any existing products just the fact that first VASL, now JASL, where does it stop? Ill do NASL, someone else will do a Cyberboard version, and so on.. They wont all be great and there will be no "Unified" platform for ASL users to play and connect. I'm a "unified" believer.

Most interesting I find it that everyone posting here seems to think my views are so "negative". Perhaps I'm just terrible at selecting wording or do not think my posting too far through... But all I've really done is stated as a die-hard fan myself of MMP's games and products what MY VISION would be. And that is ultimately for a commercial-grade full pc replacement for ASL with the "enhancements" only a PC can provide. If that is not to happen then my vision is for a single unified freeware version of VASL that is expanded to include even more features.

My initial understanding was that you were not that far along with the project. Its seems perhaps you are much further. I want as much as anyone an AI to play ASL against. I would be very supportive of that effort as well. But if you were to ask the same supportive people of your effort whether they would rather see VASL support an AI or a seperate product... I can't see that they would choose the later. And lets say they did perhaps because your interface is better or something along those lines... Then I would say why not move VASL's other functionality into your better application?

VASL or JASL it doesnt matter. There can be only one(should be only one). VASL just makes more sense because its been around since the start.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 4:38 am

Hmm that Veldor, is the hotseat you are currently sitting on eh.

Ok it appears you and Lars can talk the tech speak that goes zoom right over my head hehe.

What precisely do you envision as required for a commercial grade game?

Ok put another way, what would you consider to be required, to translate actual ASL into a computer design, such that buying a computer program with the description Computer ASL Beyond Valour (I assume it would be a bit much to make the game all in one go, just like Combat Leader is assumed to need that approach), would imply, that playing the game on the computer was defacto no different than playing the board game, with the exception I don't need my tweezers to play it?

Now just to open up that question abit further, in ASL if I want a unit to move from hex A to hex B to hex C I am doing all the math consulting all the charts, while my opponent, is conducting Defensive fire if any. I am dealing with all the variables that are encountered during the move like always. Put another way, if I have not got the manual, and have not read the manual, well I won't have any basis for where to move the counters.

What is your vision to recreate the game on the computer? I would be actually annoyed, maybe even offended, perhaps call it sacriledge if I clicked on a unit, and I got a shaded area denoting movement potentials.

Heretic!! Burn Him!!

Ok what I am saying, is if I want to play Steel Panthers, why not just accept it, and play Steel Panthers (or soon Combat Leader).
ASL without all that which makes it ASL, would really be an incredible waste of time (especially when a gamer can play Steel Panthers).
Additionally when the market is going to respond with "Duhhh why not just play Steel Panthers eh".

Aside from ASL requiring a rather hefty dose of Miscellaneous counters during play (yes I would like to be able to click a button and poof all the Prep Fire counters magically go to the unit storage tray, I'm not totally nuts), where does it become significantly different from software in other wargames that employ "counter images".

The Operational Art of War is a good example of a good game that relies on counters (a lot of counters).
Aside from ASL requiring the user be able to rotate the counter image, would it be much of a leap to add that function? (would it?, remember I am not code literate).

I am sure by now, there are some thinking, ahh just another elitist board gamer, doesn't want to do anything to make the game accessible to a novice wargamer.

Hmm lets examine what we are talking about here. Computer ASL.
Ok right off the bat you are assuming you can even get a novice interested in the most well known scariest manualed wargame in existence.
Computer ASL has no future ever being a novice wargame. If you can swing it, you will have blown me away though.

But I think the only market for computer ASL will be the johnny come latelys that were not buying ASL from the mid to late 70's and on through the 80's.
The hard core gamer, that will appreciate a 100 dollar (don't think for a second your game is going to be doable at the common mainstream dollar value) option, instead of the 2-3000 dollar approach will be a willing client.

I am going to reeeeally try and check into JASL and see what the AI is like now.
Although I think I would refrain from trying to make an AI capable of playing anything but small sized scenarios.
I currently can't picture anyone sufficiently gifted to design an AI that can run Red Barricades.

Board games will likely always be with us, some things are like realitives, they never go away.
I think if MMP ended up with a Computer ASL product, it would be just as fun to make money from it, as it is to make money from the board game.

M current local ASL opponent, doesn't even have a computer, and doesn't appear interested in getting one eh.
He is willing to make a 30-60 minute drive for a 3 hour game though.

There are a lot of people out there, (which the computer world seems to wish to ignore), that will never see this conversation, because they are to busy with non computer based entertainment

larth · Post by **larth** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:29 am

Originally posted by Veldor
Two different interfaces, two different ways to do things, two different everything. Why should a computer ASL version have to be any different? Maybe I can start the Network-Based version of ASL as yet another product. NASL. Network ASL. I hope you see my point. Why 3 products when 1 product could have all the features.

Actually, when I started getting somewhere with JASL it was not possible to hook into VASL. I had suggested it but then it was not available. So that is why there are two different interfaces.

Why should you *not* go ahead and make NASL something completely new and different? It may well blow the others out of the water. If so power to you. Please, especially since you want to do it, all you have to do is to spend some time reimplementing the functionality of JASL in C++ and DirectX and we will have a fair comparisson...

Why wait? It might take a little restructuring of the base code but it will be far far harder to combine the two later on. You also ARE duplicating code (if not functionality) in that you still have to write code to manipulate the pieces, maps and so on just as VASL does.

The area of overlapping code is not large as it is. I do not invest much time in the handling of user input, with an eye toward not having to do that later (which may well be the case). It also currently allows the VASL programming interface (API) to be redefined as Rodney pleases and I can change around with the JASL API as I prefer. I know I have changed mine completely twice which would have broken any other use of it. I have perhaps 50 - 60 classes that handle the GUI out of 600 - 700 classes so it is the smaller portion by far.

I know many languages. Perhaps I should rephrase my original statement to "MOST Commercial Games were programmed in C++" instead of ALL. There is never an ALL. Just as there is a reason why most commercial games are made with DirectX, there are reasons why most use C++. A Java vs C++ comparison is not much different than other ones such as Visual Basic vs C++. Visual Basic is a higher language.. therefore easier to program with but less powerful. Java is not far from that same boat.

Sorry, I do not know if you are joking or do not know java (do you - you did not say?) when you compare it to VB. I think your initial statements "Java is awful. It's not even worth an argument. I'll win it just by saying not a single commercial game product uses Java." were pretty strong without leaving any room for doubt. People with no experience in programming might even believe it.

Java will work nicely for the "smaller" ASL adaptation that VASL and JASL is but I stand by my belief it wouldn't work as well for a FULL blown version of Computer ASL with full functionality vs a C++ DirectX app. Of course thats not what your making, ...

What do you see as the difference between the "smaller" JASL and a "FULL blown" version of computer ASL?

You seem to have a fixation with DirectX and C++.

DirectX is cool if you need your 80 frames per second in doom, but frankly I don't see this as a major problem in an ASL program where a piece may be moved every now and then... Not to mention that it wouldn't work as easily on other plattforms like Linux or others where Java runs.

I would want a PC version of ASL to be "TRUE" to the boardgame as well, else there is no value whatsoever in it vs other products out there. I think the point I was making is that a computerized version of ASL needs to provide things the boardgame doesnt to be successfull. Like analysis, summaries, players aids, etc as super generic examples. I dont generally like the way Java graphics and programs look/perform so I may have stated something about that vs C++/DirectX combo.

Now if you want a true version of what did you mean with "The main problem "diehards" have is a total boardgame biased view which makes certain interface issues very difficult." - is it something which cannot be done in C++?

Well I deserve it on this one but that statement was. "What we need is a commercial or semi-commercial pc version of ASL, not a half dozen shotty amateur products". By that I wasn't really refering to any existing products just the fact that first VASL, now JASL, where does it stop?

Sorry, this sounds like 180° move on your part...

Most interesting I find it that everyone posting here seems to think my views are so "negative". Perhaps I'm just terrible at selecting wording or do not think my posting too far through... But all I've really done is stated as a die-hard fan myself of MMP's games and products what MY VISION would be.

Try to reread your own posts and replace JASL (or VASL) with your up-front project.

yours,
Lars

Veldor · Post by **Veldor** » Wed Apr 16, 2003 5:41 am

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Now just to open up that question abit further, in ASL if I want a unit to move from hex A to hex B to hex C I am doing all the math consulting all the charts, while my opponent, is conducting Defensive fire if any. I am dealing with all the variables that are encountered during the move like always. Put another way, if I have not got the manual, and have not read the manual, well I won't have any basis for where to move the counters.

What your essentially pointing out is one of the few core elements of boardgame design mostly missing from every single computer wargame. In most cases for simplicity purposes. However that very issue has annoyed me in many a game, even ones born on the PC such as Uncommon Valor. I'd still like to know more about the criteria used "behind the scenes" so as to understand what does and doesn't have an effect in the game.

I believe that would be just one item of many that would make a PC ASL game different. To include that detail, but also in a way that doesnt make it necessary if a player doesnt want to see it. Realize even a veteran player is not going to be concerned about every last little modifier on every last battle. Now on the ones where it really counts... Many of us love that micro-management micro-factor management.

What is your vision to recreate the game on the computer? I would be actually annoyed, maybe even offended, perhaps call it sacriledge if I clicked on a unit, and I got a shaded area denoting movement potentials.

Well lets make it a selectable "preference". Certain things would make it much MUCH easier for beginners and casual players to play. Just having the program calculate all the modifiers and summarize those for you. But perhaps even to a level of calculating "in advance" much like you would survey the board going... okay if I fire here then id get this kind of to hit ratio, or if I fire there, etc. More or less a generic example but that is the level of control you have in a boardgame isn't it? Never so in a pc game you just give your orders and click "go".

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Ok what I am saying, is if I want to play Steel Panthers, why not just accept it, and play Steel Panthers (or soon Combat Leader).
ASL without all that which makes it ASL, would really be an incredible waste of time (especially when a gamer can play Steel Panthers).

Precisely. Nothing needs to be sacrificed. Only enhacement to the information available to the player, how it is presented, and options, etc. All that is ASL is ALL missing from a game such as Steel Panthers. What it means to play ASL is not accomplished by the game. That does not make non-ASL games bad at all. They are just different games. Even if they weren't its not as if there is only one WWII First Person Shooter. There is plenty of space for more than one game.

Aside from ASL requiring a rather hefty dose of Miscellaneous counters during play (yes I would like to be able to click a button and poof all the Prep Fire counters magically go to the unit storage tray, I'm not totally nuts), where does it become significantly different from software in other wargames that employ "counter images".

You give one excellent example of the "monotony" of playing the board game version and some of the needless complexity. Its my feeling that alot of the complexity of the game of that type would be eliminated by a full PC adaptation. I wouldn't presume that anything other than counter images would be used in the game and although there would be more efficient ways than putting "prep fire" counters all over everything, It would need to be included as an option for the die-hards. But selectable preferences would allow a better approach and Im sure in time players would convert when they saw the advantages...

Aside from ASL requiring the user be able to rotate the counter image, would it be much of a leap to add that function? (would it?, remember I am not code literate).

Rotating an image is generally super simple. Better yet its probably more efficient to just store all rotations in a single bitmap and display the portion you need. Not an issue if thats what was desired.

Hmm lets examine what we are talking about here. Computer ASL.
Ok right off the bat you are assuming you can even get a novice interested in the most well known scariest manualed wargame in existence.
Computer ASL has no future ever being a novice wargame. If you can swing it, you will have blown me away though.

It would require all the things I've been a proponent of for a long time. Like multiple tutorials and so forth. You couldn't NOT do that for this game. And we all know that if you subtract out all the nitty gritty nationality and terrain rules etc and all the rules for special units you have what pretty much 80% of the rules in Chapter A? The rest of what makes ASL hard is the tactics. The tutorials simply have to walk a player through the basics of that so they feel like they "have a grip" on what it is they are suppose to do.

I think teaching and learning the game is one of the primary things a PC version could excel at. Computers are after all wonderful teaching machines.

Although I think I would refrain from trying to make an AI capable of playing anything but small sized scenarios.
I currently can't picture anyone sufficiently gifted to design an AI that can run Red Barricades.

It would be arrogant of me (I think) to state that I could BUT I will say that I have experience in Business Logic AI and basically a game AI isn't much different. In fact in some ways its simpler or at least there is less at stake. But building a complex AI is not unlike building a complex program. If you build it in a structured way, scenario size is irrelevant as its all flowing down to the same small snippets of code used in a simple scenario. Mostly AI is too often an afterthought and a rushed job. Also AI is an art in itself and most programmers are just programmers and lack that "artistic capacity".

There are things that make AI in ASL simpler, like all the phases the game is broken down into. But yet at the same time that complicates a GOOD AI because its not enough that your unit makes a good choice for prep fire... it must realize in OTHER phases that it wants to prep fire later and maneuver and otherwise do what is needed to do that. That is the problem that AI designers generally face. Its all a matter of proper design though really otherwise you get buried in the complexities of your own code. This is one reason why I firmly believe an advanced AI could never be made with something like JAVA. And why you don't see it done with Business AI and just another reason why I believe C++ is used in most commercial AI games.

One of the prominent reasons I am now developing a few games (and why you see the feature at the top of my feature lists) is to see just how "applicable" the approaches used in business AI are to games as well. Clearly, as we all know, most AI's are very lacking in ability. I don't propose to know though exactly how most of them have implemented AI. Perhaps its not far from what I intend to do. But right now I do believe it is. Only time will tell.
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Board games will likely always be with us.....There are a lot of people out there, (which the computer world seems to wish to ignore), that will never see this conversation, because they are to busy with non computer based entertainment

As time goes by, the number of people without computers greatly diminishes. And most computer developers and publishers even ignore users who don't keep their hardware up to date enough... So its mostly not a big deal to me. Perhaps, in time, if such a thing happened as a Computer ASL.. future modules might only be released for the computer version. More likely if this happens it will only be because it is far cheaper and more cost effective to develop and deliver them in this form. Not because anyone is ignoring the boardgame fans left out there.

Much like the next version of Up Front has just as much chance of showing up in my game only as it seems to for ever being actually published as a card game. You tell me whats cheaper 600 high glossed cards with full color artwork on both sides or a single 2 cent CD?