New Between the Storms Direction

[Anachro]

I am very happy to help with the mod, I bring my thoughts out a wish to improve it! One other critique from me: the mod website can be a bit unclear on the differences between RA, BTS, and BTS Lite. Hope that gets clarified in the future (maybe with simple bullet points of differences for each submod in addition to the alternate history in prose form).

I should note the above images come from BTS, DBB-C, and Scen 1 on Dec 7, 1941. Thus, no chance to change things like increasing refinery capacity, etc. BTS is using BTS 5.7

[John 3rd]

Anshan's change is the only one I know is purposeful. Stanislav thought that the Japanese could have made a greater effort there when we first created the original Mod. Obviously it will cost 150,000 supply to complete but that one is one left in the nix from square one.

As to the others...that is perplexing. I've never played with the Home Islands when it came to oil/refineries. As said before that would be ludicrous.

Wonder if this has been here all along? Remember the RA Mod started with 4-5 of us working on it and others then jumped in over the years to help in the evolution of all the Mods. Juan helped with the Off-Map Allied Aircraft Purchase System. Stanislav was there for the early development. We had help from Red Lancer, Adm Dadman, and several others. Now we are bringing in stuff from Big B's work. For the last 3-4 years it has all been on Michael and I.

This is easy to address and fix. Have no issue with that. There is little-to-no ego here when it comes to honest issues and problems.

Nice work Sean!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

I am very happy to help with the mod, I bring my thoughts out a wish to improve it! One other critique from me: the mod website can be a bit unclear on the differences between RA, BTS, and BTS Lite. Hope that gets clarified in the future (maybe with simple bullet points of differences for each submod in addition to the alternate history in prose form).

I should note the above images come from BTS, DBB-C, and Scen 1 on Dec 7, 1941. Thus, no chance to change things like increasing refinery capacity, etc. BTS is using BTS 5.7

We are a DaBabes-based scenario. That was our starting point.

The confusion within the Mod descriptions is natural and that is what Michael and I have been trying to fix with the creation of the 'Master' BTS Mod File. Once it is complete, creating the BTS-L and BTS-H will be far easier to develop and, more importantly, explain.

You would be most welcome Sean! AS you know, I have asked many times for feedback. We talk more on that!

[Anachro]

Hopefully ITAKLinus can share his thoughts on it here. He seems to have a good technical background and has done extensive technical analysis with someone else in the Italian WitP community who is playing the BTS mod atm.

[John 3rd]

Have to go and do inventory at the store. Will jump back on in a few hours.

[John 3rd]

Back from Inventory and have been thinking about this discussion.

When Michael sends back the files from his China work, I will go back thru and make sure numbers are correct with what has been shown above. That is simple and quick to fix. Have extended the invite to Sean to get a bit more involved. A fresh set of eyes is ALWAYS a good thing!

Will keep Posting as we work thru everything.

[obvert]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: obvert

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Hey Chickenboy.

By product of what I wrote up above. Good job by him. It is why I stopped the AAR. KNEW things were about to get interesting and make it very hard to not spend a bunch of time writing about events, issues, and challenges. Convenient that he re-started his abandoned AAR just as I end mine to work here and on the Mods. You can keep up that way with events.

Huh? I am so confused by what you write sometimes.

Do I need to translate this? Like ... I stopped because I don't like writing an AAR about the stage in game where Japan begins to lose more than win battles?

Why don't you get it?

EDIT: Just saw your beefed up oil production in this scenario. In the HOME ISLANDS. What a joke. What, they just drilled a bit more before the war and "discovered" some more oil? At every production centre?

Pretty interesting tone there Obvert.

I'm fine with riling you up a little. Got the discussion going anyway! [;)] The green button is available should you need it.

There is no confusion to be had here with what I am saying. The problem is what I have withheld because I've wanted to wait. The big, bad Canoerebel (Dan) and I have agreed to play each other again. This long-awaited re-match will have a huge following. My CHOICE is to write that game as an AAR and not Sean. This decision was made the moment Dan accepted the match. It had nothing to do what has happened. I told Sean that yesterday in a long email.

It's your timing that raises eyebrows. You have a way of deflecting to the narrative you'd like to put forward without addressing critiques.

As to your borderline rude comment: I have no knowledge of adding oil in the Home Islands. That is ludicrous. The whole point is the Mod FORCES Japan to be much further behind the eight ball on Dec 7th. Sure...you get expanded HI, some expanded industry, expanded naval air production/research, and two larger naval yards but it is at a huge cost. This has been seen and commented upon by players over the many years of these Mods development. What, specifically, are you talking about?

Have you downloaded the Mod? Have you actually read up on and have a full understanding of the AltHist of the Mod?

I have the mod. I have the numbers. But I didn't make the comparison as you can now see above. I noticed some odd changes to oil/resources in the SRA long ago, but didn't pursue it because I really don't care what you do with this mod to make playing Japan your wildest dream of playtoys.

The ALT history is just that.

I just care how you represent it to others who spend years engaging in games using it. If they haven't looked at the Japanese side, because they're playing Allies and may not be even familiar with what stock/DBB look like, or the affect of different levels of oil in each, then they won't know what the economy can do. You and the team go into minute detail about ship design, airframe RnD and the plethora of CD gun units you've added, but nothing about the economy. Those kinds of omissions make me more than a little suspicious.

I don't think I'm alone in that. [;)]

If something has happened that Michael and I are unaware of then we need to know and it will be immediately corrected.

I do believe that is the whole point of this thread...

Why not just leave the oil/resources and factory numbers of the economy exactly as they are in DBB or stock? Why these changes?

In the shot Anachro posted I noticed an increase in the Home Islands of 84 oil centers. I know there was an even bigger increase in the resource centres. So essentially between the changes in Formosa, Manchuria and the home Islands you have the equivalent of Tarakan and Balikpapan without having to either conquer them or transport the stuff back. Pretty convenient.

And none of you who work on the mod know about that? Hmmm.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Hopefully ITAKLinus can share his thoughts on it here. He seems to have a good technical background and has done extensive technical analysis with someone else in the Italian WitP community who is playing the BTS mod atm.

Read it now, haven't seen I got named. [:)]


Sadly, I'm stuck again in the jungle. I should be able to reach home and provide the data in the evening.


Please, as I wrote you there, feel free to report whatever post I made yesterday evening in your AAR since my comments would be basically the same.





To make a brief introduction to my thought:
Stating that "Supply and fuel reserves start at a much reduced state. The Japanese MUST take the DEI as fast as possible!" is a plain lie, brutally deceiving those who approach the Allied side, and the MOD as a whole, in bona fide.

And many statements regarding Japanese economy are, at least, dubious. Such as the fact that increased NavShipyards pose a heavy burden on the economy. There are something more than 1,700NavShipyards in the images posted above. I currently run a Scen1 PBEM with 1,700NavShipyards and I bank 5.000HI per-turn.

At this point I'd like to see ship statistics to know their production rate. I am totally uninterested in their AA weapons or stuff like that: I wanna know the possibility of those ships to be produced easily, since with your same NavShipyards I can barely accelerate CVs (bar Shinano, stopped) and have DDs in "normal". Nothing more. No Yamatos. No CLs. Few, selected subs.
I am probably wrong, but I start thinking that also the whole shipbuilding system is messed up.

[ITAKLinus]

Also, here nobody is discussing "we like the MOD or not". The discussion here is how Japanese economy is made and how it is represented in the MOD website.


I was quite surprised when I started looking at the website for the afromentioned Italian guy, since it was extremely specific on many alternative history things, but little to nothing was precisely said about the economy.
So I started comparing industrial screens from the guy to mine in my Scen1 games. It has been quite a big surprise.





I refuse to believe that any remotely competent Japanese player doesn't realise he has additional production of key factors such as OIL. I mean, I would somehow believe nobody checks resources since Japan usually swims in them. But OIL. C'mon. I'm probably a very bad player but I check carefully key elements such as FUEL/OIL/SUPPLIES and relative production sites.

Moreover, whenever there are increased production/stuff, every remotely competent Japanese player checks everything "not to screw up the economy". Brutally overproducing and keeping high operational tempo it's dancing on a razor blade, even for those who are very confident about what they are doing.



One of the two: either you are the most incompetent Japanese player who has ever been in the forum, and I don't believe so, or saying that you haven't noticed the massive increase in oil production for over 600 turns is, at least, dubious.

[BillBrown]

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.

[ITAKLinus]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.

Nobody is questioning who made the changes and why. Not me for sure. And it's far from me accusing somebody of wrongdoing. Still, I cannot believe that any vaguely competent Japanese player can play for 600 turns without realising that the economy got these heavy changes. I can believe that for, I dunno, Manpower. I never check it. I take data also from it but in theory I wouldn't need.
Doing everything by hand (well... Technically on Excel...) I could have missed it if I wouldn't have taken the info.

But for such an essential element like OIL... C'mon.


Again, it's a matter of being the most incompetent Japanese player ever, and I don't think so, or not saying a word about these additional resources. Also because, in theory, those "much lower initial stocks" should have brought somebody to check how much is this "much lower". And playing with a constant control of these stocks.
I have yet to see somebody who stretches the economy a lot and never checks it.

It's like driving on the highway well faster than car's safe limits.
Blindfolded.
Under LSD.
On the wrong direction.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: ITAKLinus

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.

Nobody is questioning who made the changes and why. Not me for sure. And it's far from me accusing somebody of wrongdoing. Still, I cannot believe that any vaguely competent Japanese player can play for 600 turns without realising that the economy got these heavy changes. I can believe that for, I dunno, Manpower. I never check it. I take data also from it but in theory I wouldn't need.
Doing everything by hand (well... Technically on Excel...) I could have missed it if I wouldn't have taken the info.

But for such an essential element like OIL... C'mon.


Again, it's a matter of being the most incompetent Japanese player ever, and I don't think so, or not saying a word about these additional resources. Also because, in theory, those "much lower initial stocks" should have brought somebody to check how much is this "much lower". And playing with a constant control of these stocks.
I have yet to see somebody who stretches the economy a lot and never checks it.

It's like driving on the highway well faster than car's safe limits.
Blindfolded.
Under LSD.
On the wrong direction.

The Allied player can always look at the Japanese setup before agreeing to the scenario and vis versa....GP

I like the mod....GP

[BillBrown]

I do too Brian, I have to wonder about all the Japanese players that had experience in stock scenarios who did not notice that
the oil output was higher. I can see John not realizing it since I doubt he has played or looked at a stock scenario for over
9 years. But apparently a lot of people want to tar and feather John over this. John started his first RA mod in March 2010.

Here is screen shot from an RA 5.3, dated in 2012, information screen. Just to show things.

[btd64]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I do too Brian, I have to wonder about all the Japanese players that had experience in stock scenarios who did not notice that
the oil output was higher. I can see John not realizing it since I doubt he has played or looked at a stock scenario for over
9 years. But apparently a lot of people want to tar and feather John over this. John started his firs RA mod in March 2010.

Those players don't have to play it either. And your right about John not playing the stock scenarios in a while....GP

[GetAssista]

It seems safe to assume that oil was FATR's change. Every other Japanese player of BTS was not aware of it, because they are actually not that good at Japanese economy in stock or DBB [;)] Hard to blame them, Japanese economy is dark and full of terrors err.. numbers.

But the change is significant, giving Japan at least 350 additional oil centers compared to DBB-C (or x3.5 domestic oil compared to stock), as I can see from the screenshots. This should be either reverted or explicitly described in the mod outline.

Edit1:There might also a boost to LI/HI compared to DBB-C (there is a boost compared to Stock), which also merits mentioning in the mod description
Edit2: I realized that LI boost is probably DBB compensation for the loss of refinery supply. This leaves HI.

[Cheesesteak]

ORIGINAL: BillBrown

I would like to put in a word or two in support of John.

1. John has been playing only one or the other of his mods for a very long time. He really does not
have a point of reference to "know" that his mod is out of wack. The early versions of his mods
were done by a group of people and he did not always know exactly what was changed.

2. I think fatr made many of the early aircraft and economy modifications. I am not sure which ones John
actually knew about. He has stated that Anshan was increased by fatr very early in the mod cycle. So I would
say that others that played Japan that were experienced Japanese players should have made a comment
at some time.

3. I stated this elsewhere but I need to put it here. I have played as Allies in this mod and find it fun
and entertaining. I really am not worried about Japan having more goodies, the Allies get enough to have
a lot of fun.

4. One item that I do not think is right is the Jack and George being CV capable with such good stats. Generally
if an aircraft goes from a land only aircraft to a CV capable it gains weight and loses speed and maneuverability.
It is something to look at.

+1

Though my version would've been something like: I like making things 'go boom'. Thanks for making something where I can make things 'go boom'.

I'm fancy like that.

[durnedwolf]

I think if you wanna whine about something then make your own damned mod. John and others worked on a pretty cool mod and they had a lot of fun making it. A lot of us have a lot of fun playing it. At the end of the day this is game.

If the mod doesn't meet your "standards" then go back to scenario 1 or make your own.

My 2 cents. And now I'm off my soapbox.

[John 3rd]

Just got a chance to catch-up on this. It has been a very long work day. While running paperwork between the stores today, had a good chance to talk to Michael about some of this and he warned me to check in. When I got home and got the chance to sit here, I saw several emails/PMs from other players. Just sent this note to Sean after he sent me some good thoughts/suggestions on the Mod:

This is good material to think on. Appreciate the time.

Sean—It is taking nearly every bit of impulse control of mine not to jump onto your AAR and call some people out. I’ve had four people PM/contact me yesterday and today over things being said there. This is not your fault and I understand that but this is becoming a bit more serious then simply playing a match between us.

I know Michael has tried to say things over there but it appears to be no good whatsoever. Is that off-base?

Need some time to think and try to clear my head before I make some decisions…
John


A few thoughts:
1. As commented upon by several people (thank you), I have not played STOCK for a number of years. Have no interest. This AltNavHist has consumed me dating back to when I wrote my Masters Thesis in 1998 entitled Between the Storms: The Impact of Naval Disarmament on the United States Navy, 1922-1936. The name of the Mod comes from there. I am a 'count the bullets' type of person. Ship research, design, modifications, and possibilities fire my imagination. If you truly know me--and it is obvious many in this thread do NOT--you will know that I am about tactics, strategy, ships, the historical figures (ie Yamamoto). You might notice the economy, oil/fuel, and other crap does not. I've left that to others on the team to work on. Ask Michael how well I do installing and using Tracker! [:'(] My economy is always on the knife's edge of collapse.

2. Over the years there have been many people, as already stated, that have stirred the pot in these Mods. Their time, energy, and commitment are to be commended--not eviscerated by the mob--and I thank each and every one of them for their outstanding work and dedication. Mistakes can happen and have happened over the years. Each time we have set off to correct or modify the issue that was found.

To be clear. I am the creator of this Mod's vision and the buck stops here. I own ANY mistakes here whether I made them or someone else over the last near decade of time.

3. We are doing a comprehensive overhaul of BTS that will then move on to Treaty, RA, and then shorter scenarios.

4. How does one respond to this?

One of the two: either you are the most incompetent Japanese player who has ever been in the forum, and I don't believe so, or saying that you haven't noticed the massive increase in oil production for over 600 turns is, at least, dubious.


To the many other people who have played as the Japanese then, evidently, you are 1. most incompetent Japanese players OR 2. a dubious (?lying?) player of our Mods because you haven't noticed these expressed issues. I think we have had some fine players play both sides and they have gotten a great experience while never feeling this way.


There is a major difference between constructive criticism and personal attack. Do not understand what draws this but others have experienced it. I can remember when several major personalities have walked away for a long period of time due to issues here on the Forum. We need to be watchful of ourselves and what we do/say. This game is a magnificent achievement that have brought a number of amazing people together to form a dynamic and wondrous community. The game, as the community, is not perfect but it is close.

[BillBrown]

I tried to sent you a PM John, your PM box is full.
And it was a long one that I lost. [:D]

[obvert]

John, I am one of the players writing a few comments in Anchro's AAR, and you can respond to me in any way you like. PM me (I tried you but your box was full at the time) email me directly (niemierik@me.com) or write back here.

I'll detail a few comments below for clarity on the discussion.

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Ship research, design, modifications, and possibilities fire my imagination. If you truly know me--and it is obvious many in this thread do NOT--you will know that I am about tactics, strategy, ships, the historical figures (ie Yamamoto). You might notice the economy, oil/fuel, and other crap does not. I've left that to others on the team to work on. Ask Michael how well I do installing and using Tracker! [:'(] My economy is always on the knife's edge of collapse.

In this mod your economy is not on the knife edge of collapse because oil and resource numbers have been increased around the Home Islands enough that Japan would most likely not actually need to go to war at all to meet its peacetime needs. Because this game is about understanding the historical playing field, regardless of your lack of interest in the whole history including the economy, this changes the strategic situation dramatically.

Allied players have even less understanding or interest in the economy than you do, and so they are playing a different game than you are, thinking they should fight to slow Japan's economy when that isn't actually possible until they're in strategic bombing range.

2. Over the years there have been many people, as already stated, that have stirred the pot in these Mods. Their time, energy, and commitment are to be commended--not eviscerated by the mob--and I thank each and every one of them for their outstanding work and dedication. Mistakes can happen and have happened over the years. Each time we have set off to correct or modify the issue that was found.

To be clear. I am the creator of this Mod's vision and the buck stops here. I own ANY mistakes here whether I made them or someone else over the last near decade of time.

3. We are doing a comprehensive overhaul of BTS that will then move on to Treaty, RA, and then shorter scenarios.

4. How does one respond to this?

One of the two: either you are the most incompetent Japanese player who has ever been in the forum, and I don't believe so, or saying that you haven't noticed the massive increase in oil production for over 600 turns is, at least, dubious.


To the many other people who have played as the Japanese then, evidently, you are 1. most incompetent Japanese players OR 2. a dubious (?lying?) player of our Mods because you haven't noticed these expressed issues. I think we have had some fine players play both sides and they have gotten a great experience while never feeling this way.


There is a major difference between constructive criticism and personal attack. Do not understand what draws this but others have experienced it. I can remember when several major personalities have walked away for a long period of time due to issues here on the Forum. We need to be watchful of ourselves and what we do/say. This game is a magnificent achievement that have brought a number of amazing people together to form a dynamic and wondrous community. The game, as the community, is not perfect but it is close.

In focusing on defending your ignorance of the economy and your inability to account for the changes that have been brought forth you're inviting yourself to these kinds of comments. Calling you out for being incompetent is essentially what you're saying above about yourself (your interest is not sufficient to be a competent economist), but it's still not right and of course we do not want personal attacks here.

If you're a nuts and bolts guy just go into the mod and post the differences from stock in detail and in a format people can understand, like paired screenshots. It's not that hard. If an Allied player can understand what they're getting into then they can play with a completely different strategic focus and have a lot more fun, which is the point, right? [:)]