Happy December 7th

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Anachro

Let's not ascribe genius where it wasn't. The difference of a few seconds or even an hour between delivery of said message and attack would not change the perception of Pearl Harbor as the underhanded surprise attack it was. If Yamamoto expected it to, than he'd be really mistaken. It'd be a large strategic mistake either way that galvanizes the US population into total war.

A significant cultural difference which the Imperial leadership did not understand.

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: Anachro
Let's not ascribe genius where it wasn't. The difference of a few seconds or even an hour between delivery of said message and attack would not change the perception of Pearl Harbor as the underhanded surprise attack it was. If Yamamoto expected it to, than he'd be really mistaken. It'd be a large strategic mistake either way that galvanizes the US population into total war.

I'm not ascribing anything. I don't claim that if the message was delivered on time that the US wouldn't have declared war on 8 December. But the "fact" is there is a difference between a surprise and a sneak attack in the minds of many on both sides. This is as true today as it was on the 7th of December 1941.

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A significant cultural difference which the Imperial leadership did not understand.

Too true, but not all in Japan were ignorant or thought it wise to ignore this difference. Yamamoto is a good example of this (and yes he did live and work in the USA so had "insider" advantage).

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

ORIGINAL: witpqs
A significant cultural difference which the Imperial leadership did not understand.

Too true, but not all in Japan were ignorant or thought it wise to ignore this difference. Yamamoto is a good example of this (and yes he did live and work in the USA so had "insider" advantage).

I was not implying that lack of understanding was an excuse. Certainly in Yamammoto's case he knew (and he is the one who commissioned and pushed the Pearl Harbor plan), I can only imagine he thought it the only viable possibility.

[Lecivius]

"Happy" was a simple reference. I didn't mean to offend. Simple point was in making sure the date did not pass unnoticed [;)]

[spence]

I remember the 'late' declaration of war. What I cannot remember is why it was late. I think by around an hour?

Alan Zimm in his book "Attack on Pearl Harbor: Strategy, Combat, Myths, Deceptions" states that the "famous 14 part message" WAS NOT A DECLARATION OF WAR. It broke off the negotiations of the special envoy Nomura but did not directly state that a state of war exists, break diplomatic relations nor even recall the Japanese Ambassador. He quotes the last few paragraphs of that message in which one would expect to find such a declaration.

I would consider the follow-on message about destroying coding machines and ciphers to be much clearer evidence that the Japanese planned imminently to start a war.

[dr.hal]

ORIGINAL: Lecivius
"Happy" was a simple reference. I didn't mean to offend. Simple point was in making sure the date did not pass unnoticed [;)]

Oh Lecivius, no offense taken on my part for sure, some of us just like to nitpick. You undoubtedly meant no harm at all so no need to apologize. I doubt that the date will be forgotten anytime soon... indeed for a century or two.... or longer. We still remember Concord and Lexington! Hell I still remember the date of my birth (which predates all of this!!!).

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: AW1Steve

I have only one question. Are you a JFB? That might explain the "happy" part. [:D]

GOOD point! I am--without doubt a JFB--REMEMBER Pearl Harbor![:'(]

[jhyden]

Thanks for the post Joe D.