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Shadrach · Post by **Shadrach** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:24 pm

So, zakblood do you have anything constructive to contribute apart from "it works on my machine"? Anything to help the users diagnose the issue of 30+ minutes on first startup?

By the way I saw your other "test" post and two things:
- 2 mins difference was only in installation. And pretty much obvious too - since your D drive is a 7200rpm harddrive while the C is a newer SSD [;)]
- Why are you still using the old 4.0.0.11 installer when all new installs have to be done with the SetupRelease-v4.1.0.20 which is the *only* one available from the downloads page?

76mm · Post by **76mm** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:39 pm

ORIGINAL: Shadrach
Why are you still using the old 4.0.0.11 installer when all new installs have to be done with the SetupRelease-v4.1.0.20 which is the *only* one available from the downloads page?

I can't speak for Zakblood, but I'm using 4.0.0.11 as well and have not had any issues.

I keep all of my install files when I buy a game, and all patch files after that...frankly in this day of almost infinite drive space (online, wherever), I'm surprised that this is not universal practice?

Shadrach · Post by **Shadrach** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:43 pm

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I keep all of my install files when I buy a game, and all patch files after that...frankly in this day of almost infinite drive space (online, wherever), I'm surprised that this is not universal practice?

I'm not talking about you guys, or even myself. I'm talking about (potential) new users, who might have just bought the game and installed it.

If someone's going to try to recreate an issue, at least they should have the common sense to try to recreate the way users are actually installing the game after buying it. Whatever works because someone happens to have the old install file lying around is pretty much irrelevant to troubleshooting an issue.

cathar1244 · Post by **cathar1244** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:52 pm

Anything to help the users diagnose the issue of 30+ minutes on first startup?

Shadrach,

That is an odd situation. Maybe something with local system performance is involved, but if so, why only with TOAW? I've done some massive file transfers for other reasons and never saw lag like that.

If permissions were the problem, I am surprised the files and folders were able to be created at all.

If I may ask a favor, could you post an image of one of your scenario folders, showing the file dates and file sizes? I'd like to compare it to what is showing for my .40 installation.

I don't have a problem with the software "being busy" on the first execution ... but it would be helpful if a small "busy: please wait" window was displayed. I know, that is small stuff compared to the memory leak bug leading to hard crashes.

Cheers

zakblood · Post by **zakblood** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

So, zakblood do you have anything constructive to contribute apart from "it works on my machine"? Anything to help the users diagnose the issue of 30+ minutes on first startup?

By the way I saw your other "test" post and two things:
- 2 mins difference was only in installation. And pretty much obvious too - since your D drive is a 7200rpm harddrive while the C is a newer SSD [;)]
- Why are you still using the old 4.0.0.11 installer when all new installs have to be done with the SetupRelease-v4.1.0.20 which is the *only* one available from the downloads page?

yes my install guide, follow it on windows 10 and as long as your drivers are up to date and compatible, and your hardware is more than the min spec, it will work and work well, if it doesn't, it's your hardware or your version of windows install

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4742231

that's my advice, and sorry that's the one i had saved and tbh it matters little as long as it's patched to the latest version, how you get there isn't the issue imo, it's permissions or hardware limitation most are describing, get around that is easy as long as they follow the advice given, if they still having issue, post on with as much hardware info as asked, as it will get sorted in the tech support channel

zakblood · Post by **zakblood** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:16 pm

i'll now re download and retest, just to please the one

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4742432

timed and done as per request, to prove a point, there are no issue, if there is, it needs to be repeatable and on our pc's, which work flawlessly tbh with correct drivers, and permissions set to default for default windows software pre installed, defender and firewall, anything extra into the mix, may need manual permission setting to allow, but installing and running as admin should setup 90%+ of the other types of AV and firewall programs out there, if it doesn't, it's a poor version and not game or windows 10 friendly

zakblood · Post by **zakblood** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:53 pm

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I keep all of my install files when I buy a game, and all patch files after that...frankly in this day of almost infinite drive space (online, wherever), I'm surprised that this is not universal practice?

I'm not talking about you guys, or even myself. I'm talking about (potential) new users, who might have just bought the game and installed it.

If someone's going to try to recreate an issue, at least they should have the common sense to try to recreate the way users are actually installing the game after buying it. Whatever works because someone happens to have the old install file lying around is pretty much irrelevant to troubleshooting an issue.

to recreate a issue, 90% of the time you need to be on the end user pc's, as it could be hardware, software plus drivers, or a conflict with something else loaded at the same time as the game, that's why we say or recommend a clean start up with as little as possible on startup loaded, then use a good firewall and AV program, that's windows 10 and game friendly.

if you wish to have 30 apps preloaded each and every boot and once in a blue moon get a conflict or error that's fine, but if you want longer gaming sessions, less conflicts and less error, the advice is always the same, a clean startup and a clean up to date pc with almost any version of windows is better than a old version of any version or a out of date one.

registry, whatever you install leaves traces, over time that slows down the registry, or breaks it, a missing or altered file, from a faulty boot, a incorrect shutdown can and does cause errors, fixing those error are what makes windows stable or unstable. the more error's a system has, the less stable is it, the older the windows version, most of the time the more unstable it is, some never have a issue, when others have one or 2 or many, unless you say it or we see it in your DrX report, then it's plain to see when you say it's the only game i have issues with, and there's 9 other errors there saying otherwise.

if something takes 30 mins to install, there is a rather large issue, and it's not game related, unless you have poor software, poor hardware and lack the understanding on how to fix it, or see it in the first place,

if a drive is that slow on a install or unpacking / uninstalling, it's either failing, or has a driver or permissions issue, or too many programs or apps are working in the background using the same drive and resources.

again not game related.

if anyone is still having any issues, then post in the tech support area so we can answer and sort it for you, happy new year and happy gaming

Meyer1 · Post by **Meyer1** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:27 pm

I'm having the same issue, installed the 4.1.0.40 patch over the 4.0.0.11 version, default directory, running the game it took about 30 minutes to respond, now as I post this it´s over 10 mins trying to load the Kasserine scenario.

Ryzen 5 1600, 16GB RAM, R580 GPU. Windows 10 64

I've noticed that during this whole time, and even now, the program loads a CPU tread (of 12) at a constant 100%.

Something's wrong with the patch.

Meyer1 · Post by **Meyer1** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 6:53 pm

I've noticed that during this whole time, and even now, the program loads a CPU tread (of 12) at a constant 100%.

So knowing that I went to see the Opart4.ini and the multicpu option was "N" . Changed to "Y" and the game no longer load a tread to 100%... but was still superslow. Changed some sound options (i think nosound to Y) and the game now works perfectly, even as I put the multicpu to N and nosound to N. So I have no idea how I did it but I fixed it...

Shadrach · Post by **Shadrach** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:32 pm

Meyer1: Good to hear. There's *definitely* something up with the audio playback in the game, several users have reported the same. Maybe related to the patch, or newer versions of Windows, hardware, drivers or something else. The audio library the game uses is Audiere which is positively ancient and will probably cause all sorts of issues on a modern PC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiere

Problem is, to fix it will probably require a complete rewrite of the audio part of the game...

I've noticed it hangs a lot on audio playback too, but I always turn sound off anyway so I never notice. My advice is turn it off in the options. So are you getting sound now?

According to the manual the options in the ini are "Used to debug the sound system" and should probably be left as-is [;)]

Zakblood: Did you clear out the Documents folder first? I you don't and you have previously installed the 4.0.0.11 version you'll have lots of scenarios in that directory and that will not match a default new user install from v4.1.0.20.

Cathar: Here's a dir listing of the files in my Documents scenarios directory:
https://pastebin.com/MDg10WW5
These are all files I've downloaded from somewhere, it was empty after install.

For completeness here's a listing of my Programs scenarios directory:
https://pastebin.com/8VevnCd2
The Programs directory just has the default scenarios shipped with the game.

Meyer1 · Post by **Meyer1** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:53 pm

Shadrach: It´s definitely a sound related problem. I uninstalled the game, installed again the 4.0.0.11 version, worked flawlessly, patched to .40 and again took forever to load. Waited so the .ini file could get created, then I checked against the 4.0.0.11 ini and couldn't find differences.
So again changed nosound to Y and game starts. Put it back to N and the game ran fine as well, but with no sound. Background sound and sound effects were turned off in game, changing the background made the game hang, sound effects on make the game slower than normal, but you could still move units.
Did they change some sound setting with the patch? The changelog says nothing about sound.

Meyer1 · Post by **Meyer1** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:08 pm

I wonder if all the guys that have no problems have the sound turned off. Or maybe it is a problem with some PCs.
FYI i installed the game yesterday on a W7 virtual machine and it was the same as on my W10 PC, so that I guess the OS it's not a factor here.

Zovs · Post by **Zovs** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:27 pm

FWIW I always shut down sound on all my games. No issues here.

Lobster · Post by **Lobster** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:31 pm

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

I'm having the same issue, installed the 4.1.0.40 patch over the 4.0.0.11 version, default directory, running the game it took about 30 minutes to respond, now as I post this it´s over 10 mins trying to load the Kasserine scenario.

Ryzen 5 1600, 16GB RAM, R580 GPU. Windows 10 64

I've noticed that during this whole time, and even now, the program loads a CPU tread (of 12) at a constant 100%.

Something's wrong with the patch.

If it were the patch everyone would have the same problem.

Meyer1 · Post by **Meyer1** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:37 pm

ORIGINAL: Lobster

ORIGINAL: Meyer1

I'm having the same issue, installed the 4.1.0.40 patch over the 4.0.0.11 version, default directory, running the game it took about 30 minutes to respond, now as I post this it´s over 10 mins trying to load the Kasserine scenario.

Ryzen 5 1600, 16GB RAM, R580 GPU. Windows 10 64

I've noticed that during this whole time, and even now, the program loads a CPU tread (of 12) at a constant 100%.

Something's wrong with the patch.

If it were the patch everyone would have the same problem.

Not necessarily. The patch obviously changed something that make the game unplayable on some PCs. If everything stays the same on my machine, working well, but patching ruined it, then...

Do you have no problems with the sound on?

Zovs

Could you try putting the sound on to see if the game works? That could be helpful.

Shadrach · Post by **Shadrach** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 8:57 pm

If I turn music/background on I don't really notice anything major, but turning Sound Effects on there's a *definite* lag the first time a sound is played. For instance moving a unit, it will lag for a bit then it runs fine again.

I've also looked at the threads in Process Explorer. And the biggest CPU-load when the game is 'idle' is the audiere.dll and dsound.dll. BUT - this is even with all sound turned off so I don't think it means a lot [&:]

I guess audio issues could be related to type of audio device. I have a Realtek HD Audio device, on-board, and it's pretty much standard stock for desktop gaming-type PCs at least. For laptops there's probably a jungle of different hardware and drivers out there.

If you don't know your audio device specs you can find by opening "System Information" (msinfo) and looking under Components > Sound Device.
There also should be no need to update audio device drivers on newer Windows (8+) as the drivers shipped with it are fine, unless you're running some weird-ass devices

EDIT: I just tested with nosound=Y in the ini. Apparently this completely disables DirectSound (and Audiere with it). So if you have severe issues with audio this is an option.

Meyer1 · Post by **Meyer1** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:18 pm

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

I guess audio issues could be related to type of audio device. I have a Realtek HD Audio device, on-board, and it's pretty much standard stock for desktop gaming-type PCs at least. For laptops there's probably a jungle of different hardware and drivers out there.

Same here, I have a B350 board.

Shadrach · Post by **Shadrach** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:29 pm

ORIGINAL: Meyer1
Same here, I have a B350 board.

Interesting. I just have a stock Realtek device and drivers, but apparently the B350 board comes with something called "Nahimic" which is some kind of audio/surround enhancement.
https://www.msi.com/page/nahimic

Maybe if you tried to disable the Nahimic software if it's running?
I'm guessing you've sorted out the issue on your end anyway but it would be an interesting test.

Meyer1 · Post by **Meyer1** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:39 pm

ORIGINAL: Shadrach

ORIGINAL: Meyer1
Same here, I have a B350 board.

Interesting. I just have a stock Realtek device and drivers, but apparently the B350 board comes with something called "Nahimic" which is some kind of audio/surround enhancement.
https://www.msi.com/page/nahimic

Maybe if you tried to disable the Nahimic software if it's running?
I'm guessing you've sorted out the issue on your end anyway but it would be an interesting test.

I don´t think I have that, I'm on an Asrock board. And I just formated the disk and reinstalled the OS just a week ago, so it´s pretty much default.

And I don't have it sorted out, I would like to have sound [:)]
Interestingly, I don't have any sound, even with sound effects on and the game lagging...

Meyer1 · Post by **Meyer1** » Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:52 pm

Interestingly, I don't have any sound, even with sound effects on and the game lagging...

Just to clarify, I'm having no sound whatsoever, even pushing the game buttons. Nada.

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