v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

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Hubert Cater
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Hubert Cater »

I would like to get a clarification on what happened to the infantry starting values:
I am playing with the beta hotfix 1.17.02. A Russian inf corps has the following starting defensive values Soft 3 hard 1, Lt Armor 1, and tank 1. attack values are Soft 4 and all others 1. The Russian player has a plus 1 tech upgrade so all these values are now plus 1 from their starting value.
I thought some of these values were supposed to have starting values of zero.????

Could you provide a screenshot of the unit properties just to make sure I fully understand here?

That being said if indeed your numbers don't match up the only thing I can think of is that the hotfix campaigns were not properly applied?

For example, what you should see for a Level-0 Soviet Corps would be the following:

Soft Attack = 3
Hard Attack = 0

Soft Defence = 2
Hard Defence = 1

At Level-1 it would be the following:

Soft Attack = 4
Hard Attack = 1

Soft Defence = 3
Hard Defence = 2
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Hubert Cater »

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

Well, it is really debatable if a naval unit should be able to spot a land unit, but it previously ever was and it has a big effect on the game balance.
Land units are save now from naval attacks until spotted by air force. So in bad weather they cannot be attacked at all.
So Germany can posistion all its air force on the coast for maximum range. UK would have to spot them with air units and will get heavy damage against the Luftwaffe.

The same situation happens in north africa where there are only limited 'save spots' for the german air force.
So Germany will benefit from this and the allied navy is quite useless once the axis navy is destroyed or damaged.
It can not spot for units anymore nore can it attack units if not spotted before.

I guess most players did not yet install the hotfix, so it may be too early to tell if that change is considerd as good or bad.

Thanks for the feedback
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by nnason »

Hubert, Thanks. My start screen says 1.17..02

Screen shot attached.

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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Hubert Cater »

My guess then is that the campaigns were probably not copied over and overwritten. The MAIN MENU screen showing v1.17.02 just tells me that you've got the right EXE, but the hotfix was both EXE and Campaigns and a few other files.

Could you try again?
Hubert
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Taxman66 »

Fast moving North to South or NE to SW

On a slightly positive note: Using the <ESC> key and returning to the game fixed the clipping.
Found this out taking the screen shot.

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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by PvtBenjamin »

ORIGINAL: Fafnir

Well, it is really debatable if a naval unit should be able to spot a land unit, but it previously ever was and it has a big effect on the game balance.
Land units are save now from naval attacks until spotted by air force. So in bad weather they cannot be attacked at all.
So Germany can posistion all its air force on the coast for maximum range. UK would have to spot them with air units and will get heavy damage against the Luftwaffe.

The same situation happens in north africa where there are only limited 'save spots' for the german air force.
So Germany will benefit from this and the allied navy is quite useless once the axis navy is destroyed or damaged.
It can not spot for units anymore nore can it attack units if not spotted before.

I guess most players did not yet install the hotfix, so it may be too early to tell if that change is considerd as good or bad.



I guess I missed this. Are naval units not being able to spot land units anymore?. If so, this is a very bad idea that has major implications for the game. Entire parts of the game would need to be re worked.

Egypt is currently very hard to defend as Allies. If this is the rule you are giving the Axis Egypt. You are also completely blind on Sealion intentions. Many others. Again, if I'm understanding this correctly this is a very bad idea.

Large parts of the game are based on sea units doing recon on the shores, changing that messes up the entire game balance.

I can see transports not doing recon but All ships?

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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by BillRunacre »

Can the Allied naval units not bombard Axis units that are adjacent to Allied land units, or visible via Allied aircraft sorties though?

If the naval unit bombards an enemy resource then it will disclose if the location is occupied, but not by simply sailing up and down the coast anymore, as this latter method was used to sniff out which locations were defended and which weren't, and it was both unrealistic and gamey.
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by PvtBenjamin »

It's really an issue of that the way the game is played and changing dramatically impacts the balance of power.

The UK airforce does not have the strength early to stand up to the Luftwaffe as Fafnir points out.

Given this imbalance the value of UK air is marginal in Sealion (very marginal) and Egypt from a recon standpoint.

The game has no recon planes (Maritime gone) and minimal ground intelligence (especially early) so ships & subs replicate that.

Given the Naval dynamics subs are the primary source of recon. If you use a surface ship and there is an enemy sub there boom.

Honestly Sealion is also "gamey" here and the only way to anticipate it is using ship/sub recon, thems the rules. If you don't have it the game needs major changes to keep the balance.











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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by nnason »

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

My guess then is that the campaigns were probably not copied over and overwritten. The MAIN MENU screen showing v1.17.02 just tells me that you've got the right EXE, but the hotfix was both EXE and Campaigns and a few other files.

Could you try again?
Hubert

Hello Hubert,
Well, the mystery gets thicker.
I reinstalled the hot patch and then rebooted. I get two different results.





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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by nnason »

Two games loaded within 2 minutes of each other. Two different results.
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Hubert Cater »

The campaign changes will only show on a newly started game. Whereas continuing any previously saved games, under the old incorrect values, will still show the older incorrect values.

Does this explain it?
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Markiss »

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

For naval units spotting land units, I can't seem to be able to find the original thread on this where it was discussed in more detail, but essentially it stems from the idea that players were using cheap units to transport them to use as spotters of hidden enemy land unit positions, e.g. along coasts as well as on islands for the world map, and that it was also debatable if naval units in general should be able to spot hidden land units along coasts and on coastal positions on islands etc.

From memory it was argued it gave too much of an advantage to naval units in this sense, where realistically those units would only truly be spotted with air or by land units via overland movement or from being amphibiously transported and dropped off etc.

In the end it doesn't stop you from attacking these coastal units, they just need to be spotted first, and it helps to eliminate the "gamey" tactics that otherwise prevailed in these situations.



The issue that drove this change was micro-landings. The ability to drive up and down an enemy's coastline looking for empty cities, and then making single-unit nuisance landings had ruined the game for many people.

I find it ironic that some of the very people who created this gamey tactic are now complaining about the change that their own actions forced to be implemented. Honestly, it is the people who are constantly pushing the rules to the breaking point looking for exploits that force this kind of reactionary change from the developers. This never needed to come up, but due to some peoples behavior, it had to be done. Italy was being forced to surrender within a couple turns of entering the game consistently, at least by certain players, by doing this very thing. If people hadn't started doing it, the fix would not have been necessary.

And it never made any sense for ships to spot land units. So I drive my battleship within a few miles of the coast. Cliffs, buildings, hills, and vegetation will limit the view inland to a few hundred meters. How can you tell what land units are stationed there, and their strengths and dispositions? You can't. Especially since the hexes on the coastline actually extend many miles inland. Ships can be spotted out to sea for many miles from land, but ships cannot see inland in any meaningful way. And submarines? Give me a break.

Nothing stops you from bombarding a resource. As far as the supposed loss of game balance from ships not being able to bombard units without spotting them first, I have never noticed these bombardments to have much of an effect. If you were counting on that to save you, you're doomed anyway.

Since this hasn't even started working yet, lets see how it goes. Maybe once a hex is bombarded by one unit, any units in it could be revealed. This would allow a ship to illuminate one hex per turn, not an entire coastline. Maybe that would work.

Let's try to find a way to make it work instead of returning to micro-landing hell. That is NOT the answer.
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by nnason »

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

The campaign changes will only show on a newly started game. Whereas continuing any previously saved games, under the old incorrect values, will still show the older incorrect values.

Does this explain it?

Most Likely. The game where the values returned to correct values was started under 1.17.00 or .01.
The game where the values didn't return I am pretty sure was started under 1.17.02


I am going to restart both games. The second game where values returned to the correct values we played a number of turns with the wrong values and well it made a significant difference.

Thanks for your help.
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by PvtBenjamin »

ORIGINAL: Markiss



The issue that drove this change was micro-landings. The ability to drive up and down an enemy's coastline looking for empty cities, and then making single-unit nuisance landings had ruined the game for many people.

I find it ironic that some of the very people who created this gamey tactic are now complaining about the change that their own actions forced to be implemented. Honestly, it is the people who are constantly pushing the rules to the breaking point looking for exploits that force this kind of reactionary change from the developers. This never needed to come up, but due to some peoples behavior, it had to be done. Italy was being forced to surrender within a couple turns of entering the game consistently, at least by certain players, by doing this very thing. If people hadn't started doing it, the fix would not have been necessary.

And it never made any sense for ships to spot land units. So I drive my battleship within a few miles of the coast. Cliffs, buildings, hills, and vegetation will limit the view inland to a few hundred meters. How can you tell what land units are stationed there, and their strengths and dispositions? You can't. Especially since the hexes on the coastline actually extend many miles inland. Ships can be spotted out to sea for many miles from land, but ships cannot see inland in any meaningful way. And submarines? Give me a break.

Nothing stops you from bombarding a resource. As far as the supposed loss of game balance from ships not being able to bombard units without spotting them first, I have never noticed these bombardments to have much of an effect. If you were counting on that to save you, you're doomed anyway.

Since this hasn't even started working yet, lets see how it goes. Maybe once a hex is bombarded by one unit, any units in it could be revealed. This would allow a ship to illuminate one hex per turn, not an entire coastline. Maybe that would work.

Let's try to find a way to make it work instead of returning to micro-landing hell. That is NOT the answer.


1) I agree on spotting in cities then amphibing to the vacant city.

2) How do you get Italy to surrender in the first few turns?

3) Subs/surface ships doing recon certainly isn't realistic. Neither is the Germans executing Sealion 4 weeks after France's fall by blocking the channel with subs. Especially being the fact that the Brits historically had a much stronger Navy, strong airforce, radar and the Germans had very slow moving barges as amphibious carriers. Even the most optimistic on Sealion agree that the Germans would have had to eliminate the Royal Airforce. Sealions there for the game, and thats ok.

As it stands right now the only way in "the game" to figure out if your opponent is going to attempt an unrealistically easy Sealion is with unrealistic subs/ships doing recon. It ain't right but its so.

I don't care if the game changes the spotting ability of ships but accommodations need to be made for Sealion and Egypt or the game isn't balanced.




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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Tanaka »

I am also seeing my opponent doing this in my WAW MP game. Has this not been changed for WAW yet?
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Markiss »

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin


1) I agree on spotting in cities then amphibing to the vacant city.

2) How do you get Italy to surrender in the first few turns?

3) Subs/surface ships doing recon certainly isn't realistic. Neither is the Germans executing Sealion 4 weeks after France's fall by blocking the channel with subs. Especially being the fact that the Brits historically had a much stronger Navy, strong airforce, radar and the Germans had very slow moving barges as amphibious carriers. Even the most optimistic on Sealion agree that the Germans would have had to eliminate the Royal Airforce. Sealions there for the game, and thats ok.

As it stands right now the only way in "the game" to figure out if your opponent is going to attempt an unrealistically easy Sealion is with unrealistic subs/ships doing recon. It ain't right but its so.

I don't care if the game changes the spotting ability of ships but accommodations need to be made for Sealion and Egypt or the game isn't balanced.





1. Yay!

2. Without giving away the specifics of certain people's strategy, Italy is invaded from all points of the compass on the turn it enters the game(I will let you figure out how). It does not have enough units to cover all of it's coastal cities without abandoning North Africa to the British, and any empty cities are easily identified using ships. It also, before the last patch, took huge national morale penalties for any landing on its territory, far higher than any other country. These facts, in addition to the loss of most of its navy on the first turn as well, drives its national morale down to dangerous levels on the first turn it enters the game. With its national morale shot, the combat effectiveness of its troops(already minimal) goes to zero. The rest of the country can now be taken easily. The only thing that the Axis player can do is flood Italy with German troops for the rest of the game trying to prevent any further morale loss. The loss of these troops permanently and so early in the game means an Allied victory. If the Germans don't move the troops in, Italy surrenders and the Allies win again. Now THAT is game unbalancing.

3. As far as Sealion goes, I always used aircraft to scout the French ports, not ships. But I believe that under the new rules if there is an amphibious assault ship in a port, a ship will see it if it gets adjacent to the port, I do not think that ability is impaired. So I am not sure what the problem is. You seem to want to be able to see them on land, in the cities before they even embark, which just isn't realistic with a ship. Or necessary. Use an aircraft, that is how these reconnaissance missions were accomplished during the war, not with ships. Unless you have already flown them all to Egypt, which is your choice, but you have to live with the consequences of it. Sealion is a little too easy, but in a turn based game, the invasion cannot be intercepted between France and Dover. Getting on Britain is fairly easy, taking all of Britain is very hard and time-consuming, I guess that is the deterrent in this game.

I'm not sure how Egypt is effected. You have aircraft there too, if you feel that you just have to know what is in a certain hex. What do you think the issue is there? Maybe we could find a way to mitigate it...
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by BillRunacre »

ORIGINAL: nnason

Hello Hubert,
Well, the mystery gets thicker.
I reinstalled the hot patch and then rebooted. I get two different results.


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When did you start this game?
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by El_Condoro »

With ships spotting adjacent land hexes, didn't a lot of larger ships carry scout planes that spotted and guided the ship's fire? Their presence in at least some cases should account for this ability.
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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by nnason »

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

ORIGINAL: nnason

Hello Hubert,
Well, the mystery gets thicker.
I reinstalled the hot patch and then rebooted. I get two different results.


Image

When did you start this game?

Bill,
See my reply to Hubert above. I can't be certain but I think I started game after 1.17.01 was out.

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RE: v1.17.02 Hotfix Beta - Now Available (Matrix Installs Only)

Post by Markiss »

IN response to El_Condoro,

Not really. The gunnery-spotting aircraft carried by battleships and cruisers are built, and their crews trained, to spot ships on the open ocean. Ships are easy to spot on the open ocean, you just need a pair of binoculars and a fairly attentive crew.

Land reconnaissance is a different matter. Troops and equipment are hidden by vegetation, buildings, fortifications, and purposely camouflaged. To bring back useful information on these troops requires sophisticated photography equipment, and an army of analysts to pour over the photos to determine exactly what they show. The naval units mentioned do not have these capabilities. A carrier might, maybe, but not these other ship types. Certainly not Submarines and Destroyers, which are the main units used for this activity in this game.

Here's an idea. Maybe a country could focus it's spying on one particular area and have a chance to see what is there. A player could pick a hex at the start of their turn, pay say 10 mmp's to account for intense spying efforts, and have a 50% chance of seeing what is there. That works much better then a submarine removing fog of war from 20 coastal hexes in a single turn, like it has been.


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