Game complication, a detrement to the hobby?

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

Absolutely.

Back in the day, I spent a fair amount of disposable income on 'beer 'n pretzels' sorts of games. I'm sure you're familiar with the likes of Panzer General, Pacific General, Fantasy General, Arcon, various first-person shooter games (DOOM, DOOM II, Quake, Unreal, Unreal Tournament, etc.)

When I stumbled on Uncommon Valor, that stopped. Then that led to War in the Pacific. I didn't buy another computer game for years. Then War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. The latter is the monster of all monsters. I can count the number of other games that I've paid money for on probably 4 fingers in the last 10 years. And after playing the new games a bit, I wander off, coming back to the franchise that I know and have spent 16 years generating competence in. For my entertainment value, WITP:AE has cost me fractions of a penny for each gaming hour spent. How could anything else compete?

[RangerJoe]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

Absolutely.

Back in the day, I spent a fair amount of disposable income on 'beer 'n pretzels' sorts of games. I'm sure you're familiar with the likes of Panzer General, Pacific General, Fantasy General, Arcon, various first-person shooter games (DOOM, DOOM II, Quake, Unreal, Unreal Tournament, etc.)

When I stumbled on Uncommon Valor, that stopped. Then that led to War in the Pacific. I didn't buy another computer game for years. Then War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. The latter is the monster of all monsters. I can count the number of other games that I've paid money for on probably 4 fingers in the last 10 years. And after playing the new games a bit, I wander off, coming back to the franchise that I know and have spent 16 years generating competence in. For my entertainment value, WITP:AE has cost me fractions of a penny for each gaming hour spent. How could anything else compete?

Ask your wife and see what she says . . . [8|]

[BeirutDude]

Why when I was a young whippersnapper we had to actually read a large number of rules to even have a little idea of what we needed to do to play a war game, even a simple one. And we had to role dice. Yeah ROLL DICE!!! For combat results and then use our brains to figure out who to take off the paper map that we had to lay out on a table. Heck, we even had to place each and every piece on the map BY HAND! And I won't even mention beverages, cats and kids. Complicated? Pffft. The computer does most of the routine stuff for me so it's just what's more time consuming more than complicated.

I'm with you, my first game was the original Battle of the Bulge by AH.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude
Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?...
Am I alone here?

+1. I have long questioned why we cannot have the old boardgame classics ported to the PC, as-is, with a decent computer opponent and editor. Old AH classics like Afrika Korps, Russian Campaign, Anzio, etc. Simple units with AF-MF, basic CRTs, etc. Should be easy enough to program and support. Provide the basic and advanced rules. If the developer wants to get fancy and add more optional complexity, then fine. But jeez, give us some decent games to PLAY, not WORK for.

That said, yes we could use more wargame classics, for fun. But we also need newer innovations for increased realism and historical accuracy that the PC can provide us, for those who want the additional complexity.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: Objekt730

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?

Did you try something like Panzer Corps? This is fun and not too complicated. Number 2 is out now.
Have a look at Unity of Command or Warplan too.

Cheers

I find Order of Battle so much better than Panzer Corps, while retaining PzC's accessibility. I don't even know why people still like to play PzC when OOB is available. Interesting missions, logistics and supply, easy to get into. I recommend it for when you're not in the mood for a monster.

Never tried Order of Battle but thanks I will have a look.

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

I have long questioned why we cannot have the old boardgame classics ported to the PC, as-is, with a decent computer opponent and editor.

Such games do exist. Maybe not the ones you name, but I know at least accurate video game replicas made of HeroQuest and BattleTech. BattleTech replica game is here. And check out Tabletop Simulator. It might have something you're looking for.

[MrsWargamer]

ORIGINAL: pzgndr

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude
Have we over complicated games to the determent of the hobby?...
Am I alone here?

+1. I have long questioned why we cannot have the old boardgame classics ported to the PC, as-is, with a decent computer opponent and editor. Old AH classics like Afrika Korps, Russian Campaign, Anzio, etc. Simple units with AF-MF, basic CRTs, etc. Should be easy enough to program and support. Provide the basic and advanced rules. If the developer wants to get fancy and add more optional complexity, then fine. But jeez, give us some decent games to PLAY, not WORK for.

That said, yes we could use more wargame classics, for fun. But we also need newer innovations for increased realism and historical accuracy that the PC can provide us, for those who want the additional complexity.

Sadly, too many of our beloved classics, are the property of a company no one likes to speak of kindly.
We don't call them Hasborg for nothing.
They won't let anyone touch the titles, and they don't want to do anything with them.

[demyansk]

I just started playing The Hunters 1939-43 solitaire game. Little different than a PC. Complicated for me reading all these rules,

[Pvt_Grunt]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

Yeah, I have Panzer Corps and that was too simplistic for my tastes.

The question really is, to everyone, is have you bought less games, in favor a a few complex ones?

YES. I tend to play 1 game only for about 3 months. I dont jump from game to game much, nor do I try every game that comes out.

[IslandInland]

Detriment not detrement. [:D]

[ezzler]

Why buy a game, that I know I will never have the time to learn? So there used to be time when I could switch from SSI: Tanks to SSI Carriers at War to just about any other title, enjoy them with just a few memory jogs and have fun. Now getting into WiTE or Armored Brigade I feel like I'm working on a Masters Degree while reading the rules

I have hearts of iron 4
Stellaris
Aurora
WIF
WITP

AND

CMO

And play none of them. For the reason you said.
I can't remember the interface. i don't want to play the hour tutorial each time to remind myself what to do.

On the downside, i just bought the American civil war game,Victory and Glory.
pretty simple. No real hard rules. A light wargame. But decent enough.
I've beaten it as the Union, on top level, In only ten hours. The abstract nature makes it quite easy to win.

[BeirutDude]

But a lot have found their way into the various versions of TOAW as scenarios. Not going to say some old SPI games didn't do that (Oil War for example) [:D] [8D]

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

But a lot have found there way into the various versions of TOAW as scenarios

Back to your original question, is TOAW too complicated for you?

[BeirutDude]

I Hope not considering the number of scenarios I designed for TOAW I, TOAW II, TOAW III and the Wargame of the Year Versions. I get on TOAW IV every once in a while but, I was disappointed by the new version and its lack of a modern (post 2005) database or I would be designing scenarios for it rather than CMO.

The issue I see is two fold...

1. The complication of games causes us to become devotees/subject matter experts in one game and doesn't allow one to easily cross over to another game and play it.
2. In that environment does it make sense to buy more games?

The "Easter Special" I passed up on
Warplan
Battlestar Galactica (SP?)
Close Combat, Bloody First
Distant Worlds

All of which in the past I might have bought (along with three Tiller titles). I bought Tiller's Japan '45 (the Olympic Game) but don't play it because all my time is consumed designing for CMO. So I didn't buy the most recent Japan game, not because I don't understand the system, I do (I have designed scenarios for those games as well). I don't have the time for it so why spend the money????

[Lobster]

TOAW does indeed have problems regarding modern warfare. Also no way to model torpedoes which have been around for well over a century. It was originally only intended for warfare up to 1955. I think it would have to be remade from the ground up to cover pre gunpowder to 21st century and everything related to it's new current scales of .25 kilometer per hex up to 200 kilometer per hex. That's tactical to strategic. I highly doubt that is going to happen.

[demyansk]

ORIGINAL: ezzler

Why buy a game, that I know I will never have the time to learn? So there used to be time when I could switch from SSI: Tanks to SSI Carriers at War to just about any other title, enjoy them with just a few memory jogs and have fun. Now getting into WiTE or Armored Brigade I feel like I'm working on a Masters Degree while reading the rules

I have hearts of iron 4
Stellaris
Aurora
WIF
WITP

AND

CMO

And play none of them. For the reason you said.
I can't remember the interface. i don't want to play the hour tutorial each time to remind myself what to do.

On the downside, i just bought the American civil war game,Victory and Glory.
pretty simple. No real hard rules. A light wargame. But decent enough.
I've beaten it as the Union, on top level, In only ten hours. The abstract nature makes it quite easy to win.

I agree

[BeirutDude]

TOAW does indeed have problems regarding modern warfare. Also no way to model torpedoes which have been around for well over a century. It was originally only intended for warfare up to 1955. I think it would have to be remade from the ground up to cover pre gunpowder to 21st century and everything related to it's new current scales of .25 kilometer per hex up to 200 kilometer per hex. That's tactical to strategic. I highly doubt that is going to happen.

What would be neat, is a TOAW with a set resolution for modern systems 2000-2030. Say 1 km/hex or 2.5km/kex. One issue I have with TOAW is it tries to be too much at too many scales. That 1-2.5km/hex seems to be a nice operational scale. There is soooooo much that can be done with that. I'd be designing scenarios there all day. Just IMHO.

[Lobster]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

TOAW does indeed have problems regarding modern warfare. Also no way to model torpedoes which have been around for well over a century. It was originally only intended for warfare up to 1955. I think it would have to be remade from the ground up to cover pre gunpowder to 21st century and everything related to it's new current scales of .25 kilometer per hex up to 200 kilometer per hex. That's tactical to strategic. I highly doubt that is going to happen.

What would be neat, is a TOAW with a set resolution for modern systems 2000-2030. Say 1 km/hex or 2.5km/kex. One issue I have with TOAW is it tries to be too much at too many scales. That 1-2.5km/hex seems to be a nice operational scale. There is soooooo much that can be done with that. I'd be designing scenarios there all day. Just IMHO.

Unfortunately modern AT methods are accurate at far longer ranges than even 2.5 kilometers. There is no direct fire at that range.

[ncc1701e]

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

What would be neat, is a TOAW with a set resolution for modern systems 2000-2030. Say 1 km/hex or 2.5km/kex. One issue I have with TOAW is it tries to be too much at too many scales. That 1-2.5km/hex seems to be a nice operational scale. There is soooooo much that can be done with that. I'd be designing scenarios there all day. Just IMHO.

Would be great indeed for TOAW to better simulate modern equipments. It has always been very focused on WW2.

[pzgndr]

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen
And check out Tabletop Simulator. It might have something you're looking for.

Tabletop Simulator does not provide for an AI computer opponent, so it's just a fancier VASSAL system for playing on a virtual gameboard. Not exactly a PC wargame.

Perchance to dream. Maybe someday a developer will create a wargame design kit for players to create/modify their own games/scenarios. Basic hex maps, terrain effects charts, combat results tables, force pools, various selectable game rules/phases/etc. Start simple, then continue to improve to provide more options and complexity. I doubt we will see such thing, but it sure would be nice. [&o]